I introduced both of my two girls to computers from a very early age --before their first birthday. The older one learned the whole alphabet before the age of two. The younger one counted to 20 and added single digits around the same age.
Now, the eldest scores regularly first of her class in math, and has asked me repeatedly to teach her about programming, which I intentionally avoided all this time to let her have a normal childhood. But what would you expect for her to be normal after all. Computers are what's normal to them.
Definitely, starting younger is the key.

I agree with the person who said to start girls young in cultivating both interest in and self-confidence with technology. This will serve them well, whether or not they decide to be in technology professionally. But there's a broader component, which is the social context. By the time kids are in high school, girls are starting to drop off the registrant list of elective science and math classes. Teachers need to make sure those who elect to go forward don't feel alienated -- not by giving them special treatment or lower standards -- just by acknowledging that they are welcome. This alienation happens more often and more subtly than we want to admit.

For me being in technology is a bit wearing -- not because i feel discriminated against, but because you have to be willing to exist in a context where the conversation and social interaction tends to be male-oriented. The most benign example is the conference situation where talk around the dinner table is about sports and cars (which i like to a certain extent, but it more of an endurance test than enjoyment). The worst example is when you know the guys are all waiting for you to cut out so they can go to the strip club.... AND when the management of your own company condones this....

What you have described here IS discrimination. It is essentially a hostile work environment. Men feel comfortable and we are outsiders. I have been a programmer ever since graduating from college and, honestly, if I didn't have the determination to be a female pioneer in my field, I would have quit a long time ago. It's a struggle every day and that's why women aren't turning to it as much as they could.

You are mistaking social interactions after work with normal human behavior of immature "boys". As a male, I agree with Beth that talk of sports and cars is something that is more endured than enjoyed. Companies do not have the right to dictate what employees do after hours, but management behavior reflects how employees are treated. Condoning strip clubs shows low moral integrity, which is an indicator of current or future preferential treatment, mishandling of expenses, and sexual harassment among other things. I would recommend looking for different management.
I personally would like to see more women in IT. I have found that they make for better managers; the geek males tend to lack the people skills.

Listen, I'm a guy that got way better grades than women that I competed against to get into a very high ranking technology institute. Many women got admitted with 15% lesser marks because they had a quota for women.

Why should I be discriminated against because of my sex?

I also missed out on a scholarship because I wasn't a woman.

I should have lied and stated I was transgendered or something politically correct and worn a dress and wig.

That is the phrase I have heard several times from parents who discontinued their child's enrollment at my daughter's school.

Sounds like you already realized, "What is Normal?" If either of our kids show interest, I spend as much time as I can on subjects from CS to Life Sciences, Political Science, they are the ones who really set the agenda for "normal" to them.

We were a little older... but my dad basically did the same thing. In 1982, he brought an Apple II home from the office, showed us some cool stuff on it, and then told us not to touch it when he was not home... Now my dad has two proud girl geeks out in the world bringing data management to the scientific community.

Your story brought a smile to my face. Computers are not hard to understand but the industry cloaks them in 'mystery'. The industry is populated by mostly, men. I think that more 'people' would enter the 'computer sciences' if more were taught maths and english.

I can't remember what age it was, but my dad taught me some simple coding in the Basic programming language when I was still in preschool, so I think most people should learn something by the time they are in middle school. I am now a Web Developer, but unlike many of my friends (especially my female friends), I have little creativity in the visual sense. The point I am trying to make is that all you need in order to be useful in a computer science field is know how to make the interface appealing to the customers, that's a big part of what makes the product or site successful, some of us just aren't very good at that. But you do need to also know what is capable of being done, which requires some knowledge, even if you're not the one who writes the code to do it. Some people think everything is done by the developers, but we need designers that are more visually talented as well. Just like any product, software requires multiple team members: Developers and Designers.

First of all, I take issue with being called a "girl". Men of the same age would be called men, not boys.

I think that part of the reason that fewer women are going into computer science has to do with the fact that a computer science degree doesn't guarantee a "good job" the way it did 5-10 years ago.

Misogyny is rampant on many technical Internet forums, but also in many jobs. I've only been out of school 5 years, but I had to leave one programming job due to sexual harassment and a generally unpleasant working environment (co-workers hitting each other, etc.).

It's not fun being the lone female programmer and treated like an oddity. I understand why some women pick an easier route.

I simply disagree with your gross assumption that males of the same age as females would have been called "men" by the author. I am 55 years old. I would refer to anyone between the ages of 2 - 23 for females and 2 - 30 for males as girls and boys respectively. (And do, often.) It simply describes the 2 group's mental states in general (bell curve wise).

I consider anyone under 25 a boy or girl. I am 47 and I wish someone would call me by a name that shaved a few years off my age. Mentally I feel like I am in my early thirties but my body disagrees.

I do think the first writer is correct that computer science is a "boys club" and at work "boys like to play with their toys". Sexual Harassment is wrong no matter who it happens to. I have been hit on at one of my early jobs several times but I was already dating a women and never took the offers. I was asked more the once by the same person but I always politely declined. I never felt like it was harassment, in fact it made me feel good that I was attractive, which I never felt I was.

We need more qualified women in the field. I am a male middle manager in my 40's (a "Cusper" between the baby boomer and GenX) and find that men and women who are truly in IT for a career and not just for money are dedicated equally. I have hired women, worked for women, helped women retire, interviewed many women for IT positions. All are just as diverse as many men, no difference. The fields within IT that seem to attract and retain the most women are in Supply Chain, ERP, and e-Commerce. Also, support and services. IT Project Managers and corporate executive leadership seem to attract the best. By the way, come on in; the boys are scared of law suits and there is no glass ceiling. I can't figure out why women are waiting when the doors are wide open and there is no limit to where you can go.

Your comment is a good example of how girls are just too sensitive.

I hope your comment is meant ironically, to show how deeply prejudice against women is embedded in our society, so that calling an adult a child is not seen as insulting, demeaning and disempowering.

Would a man whose colleagues called him a boy assume that his opinions were being taken into account equally with theirs? Might he look in his pay packet to see if he was getting a fair deal? Would you tell him "Well, of course it's not the same, statistics show that people like you are paid 28% less, you are being just too sensitive."?

....by someone who wants to make another person responsible for their own behavior/attitudes/nasty comments/derogatory jokes/lack of empathy/narcissism - whatever.

"Girls" are not "too sensitive".

The problem is - the "boys" need to develop some sensitivity - to someone's ELSE's needs, viewpoints, skills, opinions, and inherent value as people - besides their OWN.

"You're too sensitive" is a term used by an immature person who is stuck in their own little narcissistic corner of their world and who is unable or unwilling to see and attempt to understand anyone else's perception of the world or of any given situation.

Please do not project your own tunnel-vision and lack of ability to empathize with any other than your own sex onto "girls".

WE are not responsible for that. YOU are.

you are the typical woman who cant get over being a woman. face up to it, take your seroquil or other mood meds and go back to work. take some responsibility for where your gender is or isn't. These typical "you all are" such and such remarks are what get your real concerns dismissed in the first place.

"Take your seroquil"?

And people wonder why women don't want to work in IT.

Males calling a woman girl is insensitive, narcistic etc. If it were a woman calling a man boy he would be being to sensitive if he took it wrong. Any man that tells you men run these companies, corp., etc haven't talked to thier wfe or mother.

Wow, "girls are too sensitive", that isn't sexist at all. did mommy not give you enough hugs?

It isn't fair that we exist in a group of girls and men, and if you call a 'man' around the same age as you a boy, they get pretty sensitive

Although I'm male, I have seen this exact kind of behavior at smaller companies.

That said, I now work for a VERY large technology company, and the environment is completely different. Women are supported, respected and promoted.

If you are considering a career in IT, until the environment improves, don't do it.

If are already in IT, then head to the big companies, you will have peers, respect and when layoffs happen, it will be the old white males first, females last.

In the anonymous comment titled "You are correct!", the writer gleefully concludes with the following statement:

"If are already in IT, then head to the big companies, you will have peers, respect and when layoffs happen, it will be the old white males first, females last."

First of all, that's odd advice. When I was involved in a Fortune 100 corporate layoff, seniority was a major factor in who went first. And I think seniority factors are not at all uncommon with many companies, large and small.

This writer seems to consider the substitution of stupid discrimination against females, with stupid discrimination against "old white males" as some sort of great victory over the white male oppressor (who apparently deserves to pay for the sins of the past). Not only is such discrimination against "old white males" (my new group) just as disgusting as the former bias against females, it's even slightly worse, because it's being advocated by those who should know better, having been the product of a more progressive generation (in theory anyway).

Also, I would object to the implied notion that the "old white males" of today (isn't "old" nearly as pejorative as "girls"?) should pay for the unfair treatment of the women in the previous generation - in part because of another implied assumption that white males did so well in the past only by means of cheating other classes of their deserved share.

Actually, the whole idea of group or class punishment (and reward) is something that was once considered a Marxist/Stalinist outrage by most Western intellectuals. Collective guilt and punishment is something that even the Geneva Conventions on War make a point of condemning and prohibiting as a war crime. Furthermore, it should be added that generally speaking, white males (as individuals) achieved their sometimes exalted status mostly by hard work and sacrifice (and even some luck). For example, it's a fact that nearly every device and technology which now enables the wealth and comfort of modern Western (and world) society was invented and created by white males. Certainly there have been many exceptions to this statement - often best remembered AS exceptions. But at least to a degree of 90% (and most probably closer to 95%) it is a verifiable truth that the modern world (both good and bad) was invented by white males. And, this is primarily what accounts for the observed preponderance of white males at the top positions in modern societies. This largely ignored factor is the key, and not merely some sort of simple, brute oppression, as is often implied in calls for payback or restitution.

Lastly, the idea of inherited debt across generations is something quite frowned upon in our U.S. Constitution. More specifically, even as punishment for conviction of high crimes against the state (like treason) the Constitution forbids the enactment of laws which allow for "corruption of blood" - an 18th century term for legal punishments which extend to one or more future generations of the lawbreaker's family. This sort of thing was infamous in Europe, especially when someone really made a king or queen angry. The Founders of this country were quite convinced that this sort of practice should never be allowed in America. Although it's not exactly the same thing, the cross-generational payback that some would like to see from current white males for past discrimination, seems quite contrary at least to the spirit of this Constitutional principle, whereby each new generation starts with a "clean slate".

You said "it's a fact that nearly every device and technology which now enables the wealth and comfort of modern Western (and world) society was invented and created by white males." Just IMAGINE where we would be right now if women and minorities' opinions and knowledge were given the same weight as white males. I think we would be light-years ahead, perhaps in a sort of Star Trek-like world. It's such a shame that women and minorities have been oppressed and excluded for so long. I don't understand how everyone doesn't see that diversity makes for a better, smarter, more innovative world.

Come on people. I think there are a lot of things going on here and some effort should be made to separate them.

I was born in 63 and have been working in the finance departments of large corporations for 16 years. they baby boom generation is to a much greater extent than the wwII generations, concerned with appearing cool (and young by implication). No one I know (unless mgmt or a client is there) calls men "men" or women "woman." It's more like "yo dude" or "homes" or "homey" (short for home BOY) I have heard girls many times called "dudettes." A lot of this is just college culture. No one is offended in the least.

Geography: this can vary significantly depending on where you live. It is most rampant on the coasts, much less so in the mid-west and south, though in the south the expression "that old girl is fine." Has been around at least since I first came there in the 70's and neither implies that the girl is "old" or is meant to be in any way derogatory. Quite the contrary.

Traditional culture vs. counter culture vs. underground culture. Many boomers have refused to give up all the trappings of their long out-dated "hip" culture. this overlaps my first point but not entirely. Girls will always be girls because to call them women would make them sound lime they were 60 years old, which the leading edge is. Gen X, people who got out of college in the late 70's-early 80's tend to be even more counter culture than the boomers, who after a tantrum of teenage anger in the 60's, turned into the greediest and most unscrupulous generation since, I don't know when. Almost all of the corporate managers implicated in Enron, and the innumerable scandals that came after, were boomers. so much for the boomers taking over corporate America. Under their leadership, the US dropped from the fastest growing economy in the world to not even in the top 6 (China, India, brazil, Japan, Canada, australia (2007), if memory serves).

The rise & fall of Great Nations: My 60 year old chinese friend once told me that the British owned the 19th Century, the Americans the 20th, and the chinese will own the 21st. I think this is spot on. And the financial elites appear to agree. Who was it that said "America is the first country to become decadent without first reaching maturity." sorry dudes and dudettes, but you came to the party too late. You should have been born in the 20s-30s, so you would have been hitting your career stride when all of our global competitors had been literally bombed into the stone age.

part of the baby boom mantra was equality between the sexes. In large corporations, as other commentators have noted, this has become a fact. In most of the firms I have worked in females were part of the Thursday night drinks crowd, and often much wittier and more fun to be around than guys (my opinion). they constitute at least 50% of the shared services groups and I have never seen any misogynism in large corp culture. Some people predicted a kinder gentler corporate mgmt culture once women penetrated upper management. (Personally I have not seen this. There seems to be a Darwinian process where only those with "the skin of a rhynoserous" reach to top. My observation is that this is as true for men as women. Some of the nastiest partners and managers I have encountered have been women. but there are plenty of men as bad or worse. "Abusive" is the mot juste.

Is the IT industry inherently more anti-female than industry in general, and if so why? I don't know.

My brother makes $85K a year as an EEG tech working at a hospital (with paid overtime). That is a two year certificate. My ex-wife makes $35/hour as a dental hygienist (approx $70K per annum, anything over 40 hours a week paid at time and a half). I am a contracter. I get paid for every hour I work, plus time and a half for OT. If you are "careering," as the song by PIL by the same name put it, you are very likely losing. Your job doesn't love you back, your CEO and mgmt could care less about you and would sack you in a New York minute if gross receipts dropped. You owe then zip. Become a contractor. Heck what have you got to lose. you will probably double your salary and with that you can buy better insurance that your company provides. anyway in the next ten years the US will have national health like the rest of the world, guaranteed. the Corporations have dropped their commitment to health coverage, as you know if you work for one and see benefits go down every year and costs go up. Your managers are looking at a value added equation, and with 3rd world competitors, rotten corporate management to begin with, your value is tenuous at best. your job could disappear in a heartbeat, as did my friends who was a code writer and worked 15 years in the field and then was summarily laid off. He is now a framing carpenter and making about the same as he did before, as he gets OT.

Well that's my perspective from outside the industry. Take it as you will.

The EEG Tech, and dental tech who both receive good wages plus paid overtime are great examples of why people are choosing other career paths. They also don't sit inside a 6x6 cubical their entire lives staring at a computer screen. I am a woman who graduated with a CS degree in 1984. I've always had great jobs, respect of male and female colleagues, and worked at large companies. My niece is going to graduate with a medical degree. Woman are taking more risks and not taking the boring route into cube land. You go girls!!

You have issues.

I am 45 and female, and being called a girl is just fine by me.

I've been in IT for 25 years, but probably wouldn't be if I hadn't received lots of support and encouragement in elementary math and science classes from family and teachers.

I agree with the author that students must have that encouragement towards sceinces of any kind early in their education.

I agree - I didn't see any reference to "boys" in the article. Males/females is much more appropriate, and it's sad that that thought occurred to no one, given the subject of the article!

I agree with most of your comments. The only thing I might add is that it seems the word "girl" was likely used for it's alliterative quality. Not to denigrate women in general.

I agree - While I agree with the general idea that it's mildly insulting to refer to a woman as a girl - remember that for the most part we are 1) talking about an entry-level age group, and 2) the title makes use of the alliteration "Geek Girls"

I'm surprised no one got upset at being called a geek!

First off, take a pill on the "don't like being called a girl" thing. This is the exact reason why there aren't more "females" (is that OK?) in the business. Get a thicker skin and maybe grow a pair for chrissake.

Anna-
Calm Down. No one called you a "girl". Nowhere in the article did they state "Anna is a girl". Got that? NO ONE CALLED YOU A GIRL.

Yet you felt compeled to sign in here and complain about how you were called a 'girl' and that you feel it is demeaning.

If you go back and re-read the article, the "girls" in question are "girls" in School. Highschool and College. I don't think the vast majority of the population would have a problem calling people roughly 22 and under "girls and boys". It's not intended to be 'demeaning'. It's intended as a descriptor, describing the person's approximate age.

It's not pejorative in the context of the article. And assuming we were to take your single WOMAN viewpoint (since you're the ONLY person who complained about it)...

"Where are all the Women Geeks" would sound rather odd in an article that describes highschool and college age "women". I guess E-Week will need to go all "PC" from henceforth and the article will be relabled.

"What is the current location of future Information Technology employee's or contractors of the feminine persuasion?" Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.


I'm not intending to belittle you, berate you, or demean you. I'm trying to point out how people can get all huffy over a slight that never happened.

I do believe you regarding your other points. I will be the first to agree with you that Misogyny is rampant on internet forums and in the even in the IT workplace.

I do think the solution is that more women stand up for the rights, and stop letting "men be men" or if you would prefer to be demeaning... "boys be boys". :-)

"Geek Girls" and "Boys with toys" are phrases that are used in the media and by a phrase-using society. Often with their tongue firmly in their cheek. The only discrimination I see nowadays is so called "positive discrimination" which really annoys people. Those passed over feel discriminated against (must be a fact as it is explicitly admitted by the use of the term discrimination). Those who fall under the category "positively discriminately" often feel patronised or believes everyone else thinks they were unfairly given the advantage (even when it is clearly not the case).

Answer to all the issues raised here is a meritocracy where individual tastes are celebrated. I don't expect vegetarians to eat meat if I bring in salami for the team, or a diabetic to eat cakes bought in, or a Muslim to break Ramadan, or a teetotaler to consume alcoholic drinks etc. That does not mean that I cannot eat meat or cakes, have to fast, have to refrain from alcohol consumption or restrict myself to anything that is legal yet something one of my colleagues abstains from.

Come on everyone. A little bit of room for individual freedom and advancement based on ability please.

Oh and no more derogatory remarks or denying Anna her right to object to its use (You go girl!!!)

I started in 1968 programming while I was still in high school. I have progressed through the years with the technology. At present I am the IT Manager of a 12 million dollar manufacturing company. I would not recommend any 'girl' go into CS. Women get paid a lot less than men who do the same job and we get questioned about our knowledge where men are accepted.

Having been in IT for 30 years, I have encountered lack of support, devaluation of my contributions, endured comments like "software is now so good even a girl can do it" (from someone ignorant of Grace Hopper, and lately, with a large influx of foreign-born male programmers, I have had to put up with cross-cultural snubbing as well and the looks of "just let her talk, we'll decide out how we'll do it later when she's not here;" and watched in disbelief as I moved from job-to-job and was always replaced by several people, all of which were male and each of which was paid more than myself. "Girls" aren't dumb - they are learning from their mothers' and aunts' mistakes and looking for more fertile ground.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above comment. I am a woman, and a professional programmer for almost 30 years. I too have watched in disbelief as men, hired at nearly twice my salary, were sent to me for training in programming tasks I'd mastered years before accepting my job. I've developed the processes behind four patent applications, only to see my (male) boss take full credit for them. (It's pretty telling that he was unable to describe them even in the broadest terms to the patent lawyer - I was the one who did that, because it was entirely my work.) It's going to be many, many years (if ever) before there is any semblance of parity in this field.

Well this article and discussions have been an eye opener for me. I'm thinking of starting an IT company in the future and will definately keep these issues plagueing professional IT women in mind.

Somewhat off-topic from the article itself, but here goes. I'm a woman who has pursued more and more technical positions over the years because that's where the money has been and my interest has been over the years. If you know someone has been hired making more money than you, find out why, for heavens' sake. Find out what you need to do to get it. But be willing to take the criticism that may come with the information. You may be surprised that the only thing you need to do is ask for the money, or perhaps entertain a competitive offer from another company. If your company will have to pay 30% more than you are making to replace you plus recruiting costs, they may find it in their best interest to keep you. Maybe not. If you aren't happy with the money you are making and your resume is not up to date, shame on you.
I will concede that asking for more money seems to be emotionally more difficult for women than men, but get over it. If you are in the work force, you are responsible for being your own agent of change. Nobody is going to do it for you.
If I thought the guys where I work were jerks, I'd find another job. I've done it once before. I'll throw in that I personally have had good experiences with the foreign contractors I've worked with. There ARE small and mid-sized companies that don't put up with unprofessional behavior--it's divisive and unproductive. Any career is what you make it. IF you like this type of work and all that goes with it (big if--there are downsides in EVERY line of work) and have the skills employers want, you can do well. (What my employer wants has changed significantly and more than once in the last 10 years.) If you can align yourself with the direction of a solid company rather than hoping for it to align itself with you, you may do even better.

Thank you for noting the way women are treated by foreign born men in our industry. As the IT Director of a manufacturing company who employs men and women of all nationalities, I am treated as a non-entity by some foreign men who blatantly disregard direction, feedback and coaching because I am a woman.

Couple that with the misogyny that exists in the industry as a whole and it is no surprise to me that women have chosen to take an easier career path. It has nothing to do with education, intelligence or opportunities. I believe many women tire from the fight earlier in their careers, perhaps as early as college and simply choose to move into different fields.

I have step out on a limb here and say that you ladies are most likely ( and by some comments seem to be obviously ) the exceptions to the rule. I've worked in IT and I'm now a software developer/trainer, developing in and teaching C#. Over the past 10 years, I've worked with a number of women in IT and development and maybe, MAYBE, 3 of them were skilled and were a pleasure to work with. They knew their stuff and I could care less if it were a man or woman...I just wanted to have co-workers who know what the heck was going on.

Trust me though, I've worked with men who were plenty clueless (most of them just out of college thinking they're hot stuff.. lol). In any case, as I step out on this limb, I dare say that the majority of women I've worked with simply could not keep up. It wasn't that they weren't intelligent, but they couldn't keep with the changes in industry (IT) or when it came to development, just didn't have the capacity to upgrade as quickly and were just happy sit with VB6 on their workstation instead of picking up new skills. The flip side: I've worked with men who were the same way. It's just a diff of ratio's that I'm working with here.

This would often be the case with a woman co-worker who demonstrated knowledge in the area and then couldn't pull her weight. This led A LOT of men to believe that this was the case for 90% of the women in the field. It obviously led to behavior like the above with regards to snubbing women in the workforce etc.

My honest opinion? Women should seek out a different field or something greater than the fast paced IT / dev worlds. If you're intelligent, shoot for engineering the things we use.. some place where your analytical skills will help you thrive.

On a side note, I enjoyed working with the women over the men, however. The guys (sorry gents), but a lot of them were just plain ODD and lacking social skills where the women tended to not exhibit truly bizarre behaviors. This is something that I truthfully preferred over the uber geek with a severe case of social ineptitude.

If your the director then don't hire the foreigners. In India and other middle eastern companies women are subservient to the men.

Hire an American... they'll be happy to be there

I agree! The woman today who are enrolled in college are smart, self confident and motivated in many directions. Why should they limit themselves to a career in software development? IT is not a safe or even fun place to work anymore.

I agree, I tend to have to prove myself before anything I say is taken seriously, whereas my male counter part is accepted at face value.

As far as pay rates go, I think women need to be a little more aggressive in trying to get compensated for what their skills are worth. I was bent out of shape when I found out I was making less than a man doing the same job in the same company. So I asked for a raise and I got it. It was difficult for me to do that because it felt so confrontational and against my overall nature, but in the end it really wasn't. I just had to let them know that my skills were worth more than they were paying. I think more women just need to speak up.

Amen to that, Texas Woman IT Pro. I concur on all counts!!
I work in an IT department of all males except myself. I have been there almost 4 years. The guys are very nice, most of the time. At times they are condescending. And, at times I know for a fact that they would prefer it was a 'guy' shop so they could be totally 'guys' . . .if you know what I mean ladies.

I do sit in an office by myself all day and design, document, and code. This business requires self starters -- people who commune to design interfaces, and then go off separately to build what will sit behind those agreed upon interfaces. There's a lot of trust that goes with the job, and a lot of autonomy.

If a person (male or female) is wired to expect constant human interaction, this business may well be a disappointment. Some days, lunch time is it for social interaction.

If they expect to be treated like one of the crew responsible for their own oar, then this is the place to be.

This is Deb Perelman, author of this article. I just wanted to clarify that the word "Girl" was used in the title not in reference to grown women, but because my central question was: where are we losing the interest young girls with a natural inclination toward technology and math? The people I spoked to--and the research suggests--that this is before college and high school.

Our daughter "L" , age 12, attends a K-8 private school with a strong focus on Math and Science. Every year since about "2ND grade" equivalent age, I see girls drop off the student list (3 left now). My son graduated same school last year, 1 young lady in a class of 15 (wow do I give her credit!). From L's class in each case the parents stated the workload was not reasonable, it left no time for social activities (um, L has 2 art classes and Tae Kwan Do). My overall sense is these parents really were saying "she doesn't have enough time to be a girl" (not a "kid", a "girl". They seem to be parenting from their own parent's handbook and stereotypes from 30 years ago. It also cost a lot, in some cases the daughter left and the brother stayed - what does that say? BTW, they probably would disagree with my conjecture

I'm happy you stepped in to post the explanation since that is how I read the article. If more people would read and digest before responding then comments would be more constructive in order to add to the value of the article.

The person who responded saying that a 40% drop would mean that only 2 female students were in class just demonstrates that lack of thought behind a response can show up ignorance. I believe you stated that a class that had a 40:60 (~ if there were 100 students in class - female:male) split now has a 1:99 split because of the decreased enrollment of females in IT classes.

I found the article (title and content) to be appropriate for the eWeek medium. Takes all kinds to make up the world and we have a subset of that represented in this forum.

As an English major, I recognize alliteration, i.e., the repetition of an initial consonant. "Girl Geeks" has a certain flair to it. As the author pointed out, that word only appeared in the article title.

I use the term "girl" to describe my friends and we are well over 18

I love my work, always have. I am a degreed IT employee. I have been doing this for 30 years. I have to teach myself the new technologies because no one here has any knowledge older or greater than mine. I work for a $50m distributor, and have developed all the e-commerce software. However, I am not paid well for my education and experience, never will be considered for advancement, and I am only staying because of my age, and location. Women don't get the credit or the money they deserve in this field. I have worked with many women and men in this profession and it is disturbing to see the salary differences between men and women doing the same work. Usually the women out work the men 2 to 1. Most smart women are going into medicine. It provides better opportunities for them.

Maybe they have better social skills and so aren't obliged to go into a field where you're laid off because a)the CEA read an article about cheaper labor somewhere in the world, b)you're over 50, c)your family health insurance costs the company more, d)you want a decent 401 so you won't have to beg when you're 70.

I can only imagine what most IT bosses do when their employee walks in and says "I'm pregnant and my doctor says I'll have to be out for a few months."

Because the bosses have no interest in the next generation, or there even being a next generation? Or maybe they do. They may even know that other governments in the world (even ones much poorer than the US) consider that using taxpayer money to properly support a child, its mother _and_ her employer makes sense, and be actively campaigning for this aspect of civilized life.

IT personnel are not as easily replaceable as those in manufacturing, specially mid-project. I don't think it's about the money in this particular case.

LOL! Of course people have reservations about hiring women as men never ever leave their jobs! Sorry, I hear this one all too often from men who don't look at the male turnover.

This is completely my guess and I have nothing to back it up but I would think that men would be less loyal to companies than women would be. The IT men I know are always encouraging me to jump ship as often as I can to increase my pay. It seems like having a loyal employee that is out for a few months a few times in her career is better than one that leaves after 6-12 months of employment.

I have 4 kids, oldest a 16 year old high achieving daughter, and I run a software company. The problem starts during school age... Here is the deal: Without practicing for her SAT, she got a 760 on Math (and 700 plus on English and writing). Being an engineering major myself, I felt I had convinced my oldest that a great start to a career is in the field of engineering or CS. Lots of possibilities open up. As a middle schooler, this seemed like a good plan, she was bought in (and has taken every AP science class offered by her junior year). As of right now, when she is getting serious about picking a school and degree program - she has decided to aim toward less technical degrees, more specialized toward a specific set of career interests.

To the point of what others are saying on this posting, careers for women in the IT field don't "look that appealing" to a high achieving/the world is waiting for me" type of student. In effect, the young women (and men) capable of excelling in the IT field are setting their eyes higher - into the business, marketing, and leadership fields. Of course, I believe a technical undergrad degree is perfect for that... not the only path.

But, given the immense amount of information available to young people these days, and the social connection tools to communicate about such things as career and college... unless the IT field in general gets a major PR push (from where?), I believe young people (women and men) who are mature enough and advanced thinkers to the point of "school + degree = career track" will look beyond IT in many situations.

I agree completely. Computer science and IT courses focus too narrowly on the technology. They don't look at the bigger picture of how technology fits into a business, a nation, or a society as a whole. The most interesting IT work involves using technology not just to run a business, but to TRANSFORM it. (It's also where the best career opportunities lie.)

I know plenty of female product managers, project leaders - even a few CIOs - who started out in non-technology fields like marketing or finance, because they were more interested in the big picture than in sitting behind a desk coding all day. And they were better leaders BECAUSE they had experience in creative, big-picture thinking. The brightest women (and men) are usually attracted to business/marketing/finance because they appeal to more than one side of the brain, and offer more than one potential career path.

So I assume a 40% reduction, now 1 girl in class, means there were 2 girls in class in the year 2000. Maybe it's just a bad year. But I get the point. This is much simpler than people are making it out to be. People have choices. Computer technology is simply not compelling enough and female college students are opting for something more interesting for them. Why does every field everywhere have to have equal numbers of males and females. We're differnt. Our brains work differently and so our desires are different. Period, end of story.

Going from 40% of a class to 1 person does not tell us how big the drop was, but we assume it was big. Assuming the class was 30, there would have been 12 females, now 1, a drop of 89% or so.

It true ... when I was in CS in 1980s there was 50-50 split in CS classes. Today, there hardly any females in CS area. We don't have a good understanding for the shift but it has been very decisive and rapid. Possible factors include
1) CS degree become too intense ... too many courses, too technical, too much material, lack of clear visible goal/pattern to the work, CS seen as undermining life (negative activity)
2) too individualistic an effort - CS work seen as being antisocial and loner work.
3) image of Computer Science as a criminal activity.
4) part of a possible general trend of women leaving science in general.
5) terrible job prospects (in general IT jobs are getting rarer and job security is way down) - I believe I am seeing signs that male components are also increasingly opting for engineering and/or other professions -* I know a lady left the IT fold after 20 years, she claims it best thing she ever did, she makes more money, has less stress, enjoys her job way more.)
Field starting to become dominated by folks from rising third world, china, asia, india, they making up the bulk of students in IT classes.
6)high obsolescence rate of IT knowledge. ( what you learn today is obsolent tomorrow).
7)frustration with IT technology (personal anxiety about IT technology and bad experiences with it).
high levels of competition in the IT business (competition for jobs, low wages,intense change in profession)
9)novelity of IT has worn off
but this list may not even have the most important factors on it. We just don't know why women are leaving the profession, but I totally expect that men will soon follow too, and I think that the factors that caused women to leave are now beginning to influence the men also. Will there be lack of CS students in general in 5 years? In fact if we cut out the foreign student enrollment would computer science departments collapse?

I think another possibility in the lack of females entering IT is that many of the jobs available require overtime (paid/unpaid), require traveling, require odd hours (not 8am-5pm)...especially the entry-level positions.

Women that have (or want to have children) usually do not have access to daycare in those situations.

I think this also shows a huge amount of sneaky discrimination on the part of some of these companies...they create the schedule to ensure a Mom, much less a single Mom, would never even apply for the job.

My hope is that this shows that these young women/girls are taking their career path more seriously and planning for their future more carefully than others have. IT is not a very "family-friendly" field and if you leave for a little while, you can't come back at the same level you left...you start at the bottom again.

Myself, I love being a "Girl Geek". I always have. Yes, there were tough times, but if it's something you love, you fight for it...

In some ways IT is family-friendly, you can work pretty effectively from home (my sister manages 8-10 global QA/QC teams at semiconductor manufacturer, works mostly at home). But the IT peak period impact cannot be denied, it is demanding on the parents (both, in my experience).

But the point about coming back to work where you left off after having a child seems dead-on in my 20 years in IT or IT-related work. That just doesn't seem to happen very often, unless the woman takes the min time off, then maybe.

Another consideration is the shift from "IT" to "Technology Users" - the old school Business/IT divide is blurry now, and many non-IT careers require technical CS-related skills, particularly in the Business Intelligence side. There's an outlet for use of technical skill sets not in the IT mainstream.

In short, they're tech consumers with high % of "IT-like" skills but that's just part of their non-IT job.

It is disturbing, the mix when I finished my CS/MA dual major was nearly 50/50. That wasn't so long ago, just under 20 years.

Just look at the increasing percentage of Math/Science/CS etc. graduates who do not work in their field, they're in another line of work - so the numbers have dropped from those are graduating AND going into a "IT" or even Engineering profession consistent with their degree - they just don't.

Yes you are spot on, absolutely correct. I work in tax, and where in the early to late 90s we had one or two IT support people in the tax group, now preparation manual entries that require extensive knowledge of the US Tax rules are made by contractors overseas and "reviewed" by Tax Directors in the US.)

The owners of the Fortune 500 public corps and NASDAQ equivalent do not care about results beyond the next quarter so that they can get their bonuses and stock options. this is in large due to a flawed IRS rule that denied a corporation deductions for high mgmt base comp in excess of $1M. But lobiests for the rich nuliffied the law by exenting "bonus-based comp" (based on meeting a QUARTERLY GOAL. ANY CEO OR CFO WHO IS NOT A TOTAL DORK CAN MANIPULATE QUARTRLY RESULTS SO AS TO EARN HIS/HER BONUS & OPTIONS. This is common knowledge by anyone inside the corp and by the more serious and honest of stock analysts. the law has become a joke, and no senior corporate manager earns a base salary in excess of the high $900K level. The rest is "target-based-bonus." which is VERILY easily manipulated.

This is in contrast to the more recent IRS restrictions of "golden Parachutes" and personal use of corporate aircraft, where mgmt must pay out of their personal tax a 20$ excise for their malfeasance. A perfectly just result.

If you are not intimately famliar with SEC and GAAP rules, you, as a middle class American had better get your head out of the sand. Our comapnaies are being governed by people who care only for their own short-term remuneration. The American worket, white collar or blue will be the loser. You had better get hip to this reality. Or in the next generation we will be buried by the chinese, Indians, Brazilians and etc. Your corporate elites do not care. You better wake up!

IT companies are their own worst enemies. They pull crap like threatening to outsource peoples' jobs. Then they don't expect this to leak backwards into colleges and universities.

Welcome to the age of Facebook. People talk.

Cool it with the threatening to wreck peoples' careers. People who are pragmatic about their careers (lots of women are like this ---- surprise) hear this kind of talk and they shy away from IT.

Get real.

If Dad's driving cab because his 6-figure job was outsourced to India, maybe the girls just catch on quicker.

Look at your TV schedule, the best seller list, movies, whatever. Law and medicine are glamourized, the more esoteric parts of law enforcment (and crime) as made to seem exciting, and business is at least acknowledged and tolerated. I don't watch enough TV to be up on my cultural references, but where other fields are portrayed by the beautiful people of Hollywood, IT and engineering are represented by... Dilbert.

For what it's worth, this reinforces what goes on in my own household. I am actively encouraging my children to stay away from IT as a career choice. I'm a male Oracle DBA in my late 40's, and though my job is lucrative, it's also endless, with lots of evenings and weekends devoured by a constantly changing environment. My kids see this. Yes, there's a challenge involved with constant learning and constant (re-)inventing, but who wants a job where today's honored Master is tomorrow's washed-up Dinosaur? If all one wants out of life is a career, the constant struggle of being in IT is fine. As for me, I want my eulogy to have a little more substance to it than "he was a really good with computers".

As far as I'm concerned - and what I'm teaching my children - is that being a professional computer geek is a lot like being a maid: It's better to hire one than is is to be one.

So, what are you going to do? Continue being a unfulfilled DBA , or have you got a plan to do something else?

I've introduced my daughters to two programming languages - Alice (Carnegie Mellon) and Scratch (MIT) - that they have taken a liking to for a period of time without even really realizing they are programming. They can create games and virtual worlds. I want them to feel comfortable with technology.

But would I want them to go into IT?? No way! I wouldn't want any sons to go into IT either though.

you can't make a real video game with Alice and Scratch. Try AgentSheets.

http://www.agentsheets.com

Because of the unscheduled overtime and travel, I left this field as demands of my growing family increased. I was fortuante enough to be able to use my skills in the academic arena. Lately, I have met several VERY capable young women whose companies value their talents and are allowing more flexible work schedules. I can only hope that more companies realize that a little more flexibility allows them to retain valuable and productive employees--and I'm sure this applies to all in the field, no matter what gender!

There are also very few women or girls in the construction trade apprenticeship programs, even though an electrician or plumber gets very good money. And don't tell me there is less sexual harassment in "traditional" women's jobs than in the trades, because the hounds go where the girls are.

I have enjoyed these comments more than the article. And, just about everyone of them has rung true in some way. I graduated H.S. in '86. Graduated college with a B.S. in Statistics and a minor in C.S. (because I thought programming was "fun". Believe it or not, it was not until I was in college that I heard "boys" were "better" in math and science than "girls". I was shocked! For years, I thought it was the other way around because no one had ever told me different and I formed my conclusion from what I had observed in middle and high school. Even at that late stage it made me question myself (but not for long). Kids composite what they hear and see to form their beliefs and decisions. And what are they hearing and seeing? Boys are better at math and science, IT people are geeks, jobs are being outsourced, etc. If they happen to have a parent in that field, they are completely aware of the hours required, demands on the personal time (most IT is 24/7 even when not working over to get a project done), stress, etc. As a former boss once said, "I make a 100 decisions on the fly each day and one bad decision could cost me my job". I love my job and IT in general because it is creative, challenging and there is no end to where it could go but if I heard all this before I started my career (and with the Internet, kids do), I might have made a different decision.

I'm wondering if the author is just looking at Computer science degrees because degree names such as Management informations systems, or Information technology are on the rise. I opted to go for an Information technology degree over Computer Science because I could direct my focus more towards database programming and networking. I'm already working in the industry as a System's Analyst so I had very specific educational goals.

The other issue I have is the way women, or girls or whatever you want to call us, are treated differently when pursuing these degrees. I get a lot of support sure, but I also get treated like the odd one out. I must admit I enjoy shocking people who assume that I'm not capable, but it gets really annoying and you have to develop a thick skin to handle it. Anyone would get sick of being treated like that and start to wonder if it's all really worth the trouble.

Girls! how about Boys too! Face it IT work is dead-end. This is coming from a pretty ancient IT guy who has been at it for 35+ years. Outsourcing, other-sourcing, late nights + weekends (cost me a marriage) ridiculous deadlines ETC ETC. This wasn't my first choice for a career but it beat getting sent off to Vietnam. Really there is nothing good about this work when you're in the trenches. No glamor, a pretty unsatisfying sense of accomplishment since you can't explain what you did to anyone else. IT is not fun anymore. I encourage my 14 YO son to learn a trade. Hard to outsource a good plumber. I don't wanna be a geek anymore, I definitely don't want my kids going anywhere near computers other than to use them as tools.

Wow, seems like you got the short end of the stick. I'm in IT, I love my job, and I would encourage my kids into IT positions if they are so inclined. No question about it.

Not paid as much as men.
Outsourcing.
Bad image.
Hard work.

Smarter Girls!

It might be that the countries that are providing the tech workers do not supply equality to the female sex. I would think that women would like to work in a diverse environment where they are honored as equal. Take a look at the applications for foreign tech workers (H1-B Visas) and see how many are female! Also, the increased pressure from foreign tech worker has depressed all citizen minorities in technology.

I'm surprised that my comments about the effect of outsourcing were blocked (censored?) from the comments, but apparently another reader's reference to "whore island" was fine for posting.

After 20 years in the CIS field, starting as a mainframe database admin and programmer, moving to tech support, and then network administration, I retired at age 53 because I had finally had enough of sexual discrimination and, unfortunately, sexual harassment, from male colleagues who believed that serious computer work was "men's work." They often stated that women should "stick to the help-desk telephone," if they wanted to work with computers. This is all too common and is a major reason why women are moving to other professions. Of course, all offices are not like this, but way too many are. Four girls in our agency left before me & I hung on only because I was so close to retirement with full benefits. I still work in the profession, as a freelancer. I love the work, was proud of the education and technical certifications, but would never go into another group environment.

We must encourage more males in the IT industry to have sex changes, that way we can keep up with hiring quotas!!

After getting my computer science degree in the early 90s and working in the field ever since, I have not noticed a shortage of interest by women. My development department is a 50/50 mix and my manager and director are both women. Both my daughters are young and in early grade school and the older is starting to ask questions about the code that I often have up on the computer at home. It is probably the right time to start sharing how software and computers work as they only play games on the computers at school.

after the tech boom we see what the jobs really can be. drudgery, over worked, under paid. tossed aside in massive layoffs or jobs moved off shore. perhaps the girls see their fathers, older engineers losing their jobs and having harder and harder time being hired. little press on this, the industry wash out rate must be rather high. sure you always can point to examples of the people that made it big, but what about the rest. the industry uses up people when they are young, and tosses them aside. whats the point in choosing a career to boost a quota when there are so many negatives, especially if you ever want to have a family.
want a stable job? go into healthcare for instance. also hard, but well, sick and old generally stay home. off shoring is harder to do. the pay is also good. many nurses make much more than many in IT.

as for why women are judged more harshly. when the general impression is that they are given special treatment and incentives to enter a field based on political correctness or quotas people become suspicious of that persons abilities. the entire idea of trying to steer people into jobs this way has been counter productive and damaging.

"
I think this also shows a huge amount of sneaky discrimination on the part of some of these companies...they create the schedule to ensure a Mom, much less a single Mom, would never even apply for the job. "

no, thats just a lousy job for a person with different needs. would a single mom become a miner? or go work on an ocean oil rig? there are plenty of dangerous jobs out there that pay good money that most women will avoid for the same reasons. people have different priorities and they choose jobs based on this. its nothing sneaky.

frankly perhaps the problem is there were too many pushed into the field. who wants to pay more when there are always more workers to be had? leave it be, its self correcting. the industry gets the workers it deserves. and the smart decision is to abandon them until they learn their lesson. so perhaps the girls abandoning cs are smarter than you think. certainly smarter than the politically correct crowd who think they are working for their interests one wonders about how many people came out with degrees they really didn't want and later washed out of the industry with many wasted years because do gooders thought they knew what was best for other people. industry goes along since the bigger the pool of candidates the more likely they'll get a few great workers, damn the rest.

The article points out that young women are entering more traditional math/science programs. Some key
factors: 1. in economic hard times, people tend to make more traditional/conservative choices, 2. women tend to feel the effects of economic declines more than men, and 3. many graduates of computer science programs have discovered they spent too much time learning details of particular environments/tools and not enough of the underlying principles. Computer science programs expanded too quickly, and many were aimed a producing graduates who could immediately fill low-level positions without further training. Give young women more credit -- I think many are making sensible choices.

I have two daughters, and I would encourage them to look elsewhere than IT. I work in IT and do menial stuff and watch as jobs are outsourced to India or Indian companies at my work site. The women that do work with me want out. The senior IT management is out-of-touch with reality blindly following what GE does. Eventually I will be gone. I will eventually raise my 2 daughters while my wife becomes a partner at a Big 4 firm. I wouldn't recommend this industry to anyone unless one was really excited about it. Else wise move on....

Simple: WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN.

IT jobs stink. Women catch onto that faster than men do, so they never enter the field.

Insane work week.
Work/work balance, not work/life balance.
24 hour on call.
Easily outsourced.
Boring and tedious.
Any sufficiently trained monkey can do it.
Pay is average, and they resent paying that.
Certifications are required, yet useless, and you have to often get trained on your own dime, and own time.

i know the olpc is a humanitarian effort, but perhaps it also sends a signal. we are training cheap replacements for many in the tech field it seems. future competent labor forces in poor countries + out sourcing + h1b's = why would anyone want to deal with that?

I am not an IT professional, but rather a user of applications, desk top and some fairly complex software used in the tax/accounting industry.

I started in 1991. In those days, at least in the big six, there were no networks and everything was loaded on each individual computer. There were dozens of desk top people as problems were a daily if not hourly occurrence.

Fast forward to the last two years. Digital, Wang, Lotus, Data General and all the rest of the "Mass Miracle" (remember Mike Dukakis?) companies no longer exist. I was a Tax Ditector at Polaroid in 2002 when it was sold at a chapter 11 sale. The last large mfg company in Mass. was Gillette, but P&G bought them out and there went 5,000 more good jobs. When you are talking about "central services" (accounting, finance, HR, shareholder relations, tax and IT) you don't need two groups; generally everyone is cut loose from the target company.

When I work at large corps now like GE Capital, United Technologies, etc. most of the systems part of the tax return, which comes of whatever ERP system they are using , is sent to India and all that work is done there. In foreign tax there are some complex calculations that still have to be done manually (spreadsheets). When I was at the ge capital tax department there was a whole row of Indians who talked to Indians in India in Hindustani (I assume) all day. I don't think there was single caucasian in the tax department who even knew how to do an Oracle query.

Not only have the Big 4 accounting firms started outsourcing compliance work (actually preparing the tax return) to India, but also some law firms and large accounting firms have started outsourcing legal ressearch to India. And I thought tax would be stable.

I will say that if you know how to work with data bases and you also know tax you can make a LOT of money doing transfer price studies and also building data bases for this new generation of tax soft ware.

Offshoring leads to reduced interest level in Computer Science majors, because it breaks the market mechanism in the computer jobs sector of the labor market and leads to reduction or suppression of wages and salaries, especially affecting new graduates.

Women are affected more, because H1-B programs inflate the relative percentage of unmarried women thus making it more difficult for women to combine work with childbirth and child rearing. These programs provide a convenient legal mechanism to discriminate against pregnant women and women with small children.

Although I only minored in Comp. Sci. in college, through the CS courses I took and the tech job I held as a student, my experience was that of an outsider to the culture that ties most tech-oriented people together despite their differences in background and personality.
The geek culture is unwelcoming of females as true peers with equity. This is disheartening for the young college woman who starts off believing she lives in a different age, free from the restrictions of previous generations. She wants to embrace her interest and skills in the tech field, but is constantly waging a mental battle against the feeling that she isn't really wanted there, least of all for her abilities.
When my male coworkers and fellow students casually joked about their collection of internet porn and how they are are fans of blatantly female-degrading anime I feel like I cannot be taken seriously as an equal in their company. I can't embrace a geek culture that devalues me for being female and points out to me how "unusual" I am for striving to build part of my career on logic and problem-solving skills rather then, oh, something communications-based, because we're all just a bunch of chatty airheads who'd be better off in HR or the like. Right. It's no wonder a lot of us in the field grow a thick skin or get out.

I am the only woman (not girl) in my IT department. My immediate supervisor seems to feel that as a "girl" I should not get angry or suggest too many things. The men are allowed to get angry and suggest things. It was the same when I was research: men were important and women didn't count for much. The problem is that behavior that, in a man, is seen as forceful, commanding, evidence of leadership qualities is not seen the same way in a woman. Just watch the current presidential campaign.

if people sense they are being watched all the time for gender bias they will resent it. and the impression is that women pushed into the field are started off on the wrong foot. they have it drummed into their head constantly that men are out to get them, so every slight is viewed through this lense which can be problematic since slights happen in work places for many reasons. many in the it field are technical types and as such are less social in general or possibly have aspergers. its nothing personal. if everyones on edge because they know the designated girl behavior monitor is around they will be on edge. its a self fulfilling kind of thing thats been set up. hypersensitivity reinforces itself by creating negative reactions. casual jokes are frankly not something to be worried about unless its your boss thats doing it. if people see you have thin skin you will be unwelcome. its your perception that porn degrades women because its been drummed into your head from an old school feminist perspective. its not necessarily so. you just jump to conclusions because they talk about it openly. i should remind you the most truly sexist folks tend to be the most anti porn as well. think taliban/religious zealot types. joking about such things doesn't necessarily make a man sexist.

perhaps many women don't understand some men have less social skills, and perceive slights that don't exist. that perhaps in itself is a deficit or perhaps women with social skills deficits also are attracted to such work and the combination is poisonous. and frankly i don't see it. most geeks i know are the least sexist people around. geeks love merit. they hate popularity and other type of nonsense. they weren't the popular kids in school. of course this isnt saying they are the most empathetic or tactful bunch, but the whole sexism is rampant thing seems rather over blown.

I fervently hope that the folks in charge of IT hiring read the comments on this article, and take them seriously instead of dismissing them as unpleasant and merely anecdotal stories. Young people making life-changing decisions will not go where they are not welcome.

The answer to this is Digital Media which seem more interesting and flexible than Computer Science. Wouldn't you choose "state of the art" cool than being a girl geek?

As an IT manager for a large corporation, I was strongly encouraged by HR to hire a certain percentage of women in our department.

It wasn’t easy for two reasons:

1. Many of applicants simply had out dated skill sets. They weren’t passionate about what they did. Where the male employees seemed to learn by osmosis from surrounding themselves with technology at home as well as at work; for the women it seemed to require constant reading, and formal training to achieve the same skill level. They simply we’re passionate about their work, it didn’t interest them, they simply wanted a high paying job. (To be fair, I see a lot of new men in the industry who are the same way.)


2. Some of the male “geeks” lacked the social etiquette required for a co-ed environment. This resulted frequent HR involvement with the men, which in turn resulted in animosity towards the female team members.

Eventually I did find some great women for our department however.

But these women were serious geeks, and that is rare. They were quickly and fully accepted after blowing off some early skepticism by their male counterparts.

Yep

Also, doesn't matter if you're male or female when encroaching on a new environment you always have to "prove" yourself in order to gain respect. Amazing how many (males and females) whine about not getting respect or being "treated fairly." Grow up people, respect is hard earned and easily lost. Fear is far easier to maintain.

As Machiavelli wrote in The Prince, “The answer is of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved.”

As Machiavelli asserts, commitments made in peace are not always kept in adversity; however, commitments made in fear are kept out of fear.

I have been in IT for almost ten years and love it. My father worked in computers and they were always a part of my life. However, when I was in my late 20s and needed a career change after my second child was born, people actually laughed when they heard I was going to become a programmer. Joke was on them: I was number one in my class, not the men, not the foreign students. Me, a young mother of two. Go figure! Maybe if we got a little more credit, girls would be interested. They aren't stupid, they want to be where they are truly appreciated! Luckily the company I work for appreciates women, and I am surrounded by many girl geeks. Men and women have unique and different perspectives and the best products can be produced when you have both sexes contributing their ideas and talents.

IT has generally been a good field for me as a woman (25 years plus). About 10 years, I had to update my skills a lot because main-frames were being phased out. However, production support skills are good whether main-frame or Internet. There are still a number of women working around me, but the age range is more like 40 and up. -- I don't see many younger women in the field. -- There was a surplus of IT programmers when I was first hired. The job market has really varied. Several changes brought big changes in loss of jobs: job freezes, dot-com failures and out-sourcing of jobs (or talk of it). -- I think woman stayed out of the field about the time that our state froze jobs -- it seemed to impact the private sector as well. The job market did not look good so women stopped entering it unless they had a passion for it. -- I am intend to learn some other skills so that when I retire I can have more fun with technology and do more creative projects (whether as a hobby or to make some extra money). -- To encourage "girls:" mentor, show them interesting projects and spike their interest at a young age. The job market needs to be OK too.

After a Master's degree in C.S. and several years of working in various companies designing apps. from the scratch up and making them into marketable products, I decide to step out of IT because in some ways to me, it blocks creativity. So perhaps not from the career level but more personal development level, I opted for other areas where my real thoughts are valued, other than "problem solving skills".

First of all we should stop falling into the trap of thinking that IT is a career field where the entry level is like medicine or law -- something so high that you need years of training to do it. It is a commodity business function now. Young people, who have grown up with computers, accept this without even thinking about it. Their employers have not yet grasped it and continue to offer two career tracks, one business and one IT.

When a young person comes to choose, will they pick the IT path, with its late nights in the server room, forced marches on coding projects, and a risky career path that might take them only to being a CIO under a CFO? Or will they pick a business career path that can take them all the way to the top (including managing IT functions)?

Technology has given me a wonderful career. But lets be brutally honest amongst ourselves. To get ahead, business training is far more important than computer science.

Lots of evenings, weekends, on-calls, irate users, ignorant management - would pick this career if you were just getting started?

This may be "exciting" for some people, but the "joys" of working IT have lots of negatives.

Interesting article. I also have been trying to figure out this issue for a long time and the recurring thoughts come to mind every time I think about this topic:

1. Is this really a PR issue, how many women really want to be mechanics or construction workers (are we trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube by trying to force girls down a path they do not want to go)?
2. What about the general engineering population, are they seeing the same thing in this population, why or why not?
3. Have the boom and bust in IT caused many of these problems? (As anecdotal evidence, I have had women I work with tell me that they would never be in this field since they saw their parents have to deal with strained relationships with their spouses, undue stress and divorces due to the continuous change of employment (due many times to layoffs and/or career enhancement), missed or severely interrupted vacations, travel on personal time, time away from the family, inflexible work schedules and 24 hour emergency on call without the perceived benefits or rewards/pay (maybe the girls are more mature about seeing this impact than the boys). Everyone in IT is expected to be on a schedule like the senior executive team without the financial rewards or even the smallest bit of respect.
4. Is the need really to educate the business on the value of the IT organization? How many times have we agreed to do projects because they were interesting without really having the benefits defined, and/or do we have the proper buy-in and support from the business so the negatives in the item directly above do not happen?
5. Have we as an IT industry created the issues in the two directly above by trying to be too accommodating (by saying yes to deadlines that the business says must be met) or promising things that we cannot deliver (poor or non-existent project management?) or has this been caused by our inability to communicate the real costs and implications of a project to the business and spent the time communicating with them to get the business to buy in to a reasonable and workable solution? In reality, what we are asking software engineers to build is a engineered system that has continuously changing and/or new requirements, new technology, involves many people (and not just known materials) and has different technology integrated into it as it proceeds. Thus the system needs to be re-architected on a daily basis without the requisite changes in the required resources, budgets, personnel and timelines. That is exponentially more complicated than trying to build a bridge or building and I do not think there is any civil engineer who would agree to build a bridge or building under those changing conditions. They would walk away from the work rather than risk the system failures. They would stop the project, redo the design and then re-estimate and re-bid the project. Have we gotten away from doing that and in the process have lost the engineering discipline in the systems engineering world in too many circumstances.
6. Do all the things mentioned above offset the fun parts of working in IT (challenges, change, etc.) enough that our girls are going to other fields that provide some of the same benefits, without all the perceived or real negatives? If so, why are the boys still willing to do this? Are they stupid?

Lots of questions, not too many answers. Maybe a great topic for some anthropology PH. D's to study for their thesis?

It's so simple.
"Girles" don't have the mentality for this task

http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/israeligirls.jpg

I believe that these girls would like to talk with you good sir. And I believe that there are women out there who are far more capable at doing your job than you.

Lesson for the day: Remove head from sphincter, THEN type!

I think, in general, women are smarter than men and thus know enough to stay out of a profession where management considers you a plug in module discardable for no obvious reason at their whim. Worst still, since the 1970s pay levels have dropped to about half of what they were in real dollars.

Given those conditions who in their sane mind would want to go into IT?

When I saw my first Pet computer at school, I wanted to play with it immediately. I was told that the boys in my class were in charge of it, so you know I wasn't allowed near it. In college, there was no computer major, only math with computer electives and women were discouraged from applying (this was the DEEP South in the 70s). But I found ways to get at the computers anyway and had to learn OJT because places like IBM and the other biggies tended to hire males (and at IBM there was even a height/gender/race requirement).

My daughter has never NOT been around computers and is incredibly knowledgeable for a 12 y/o. She even attends a school where there is a computer graphics program. BUT... She knows more than the teacher and so the teacher is telling my child that everything she does is wrong if it varies from or goes beyond the teacher's knowledge. That tells me that the schools aren't hiring true computer professionals but people with teaching degrees who "like" computers. So now my daughter is getting bored because she isn't learning anything. That is sad because she loves computers and wants to learn everything she can.

Meanwhile, she sees the crap I go through every day, watching men I trained with (or trained!) at my current job promote past me because they are men. I have been told that I need "more training" , but the money is never available to our department (which is, not surprisingly, mostly female). She sees the long days, the lack of flexibility concerning family needs and the lack of recognition and is reconsidering her choices re technology.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have gone with my second choice. But I love what I do too much--just not the conditions under which I have to do it.

I have worked around females in IT for over 20 years and out of the many dozens I have worked with and for...only two or three were worth a damn...the rest lazy, more worried about how they looked than the quality of the code they wrote.

There are hundreds of facets to IT, any of which a lot of females would be most excellent at, but from my experience only a handful are great at programming. Maybe it's just the way our brains are wired.

I believe these people that are talking about women not knowing what they're doing (in a programming sense) are really just seeing that programmers these days are just not as good as they were in the past. The first generation of programmers did it because they loved it and they learned it and developed the entire industry on their own. Recently it has been touted as a "good career" to make lots of money and that's why a lot of people have decided to get CS degrees (women AND men). I think most of the programmers these days don't have the passion for it like the ones in the past and I also think that the best programmers are usually the ones without the CS degrees that truly LOVE programming. I am one of those IT women. It is hard to get management to realize that you are one of the best when you don't have that CS degree to wave in their face, but your work can prove it as long as you get the chance. That's what I have done. It's a rough road, but, if you love it, it's worth it.

Also, I endure all the sexual harassment and discrimination mention in the above posts. It's very frustrating, but we need women to be a part of IT if we ever want to change anything. Women need to have the same opportunity to join the IT force that men do. Leaving will not enact change, it will just prove to everyone that those that think it's not a good career for women were right and make it harder for the ones that belong here.

You are absolutely correct in your assessment, programmers today (male and female) are of the point/click variety and couldn't write real code from scratch if their life depended on it. Microsoft really screwed the pooch on this and dumbed down a lot of programmers. Put programmers in a room since the Internet boom, take away their access to the Internet, demo code, templates or anything else. Just an editor and a spec and say, "write this." They couldn't do it. Useless. Most of their eyes roll up in their heads if you start talking about basic CS stuff like data structures, sorting and searching, etc. Microsoft and most IDE's now days have so many layers of "code hiding" under the guise of simplifying programming and fostering code reuse that most programmers don't have a clue what the machine is really doing.

I agree that some management wants to use that lack of a degree as a tool to avoid paying you what they should but here is how you beat that. Learn everything you can that that job can teach you, enhance your skill set and try to associate yourself with the smartest people in that company...and then move on. You will never make more money by staying put, only the pitiful "cost of living" increases that can't even keep up with the cost of gasoline. You get your big jumps by job hopping, but you have to have the skills to back it up.

I'm not saying you were not "sexually discrimated/harrassed." I know it does happen (BOTH ways I might add) but in our litigious society and lazy society a lot of people are just looking for a fast buck so they can move to the beach and get even more fat and lazy. I have worked many places and have seen very little of this bad behavior. I did know one gal that just because she received a pat on the back for a job well done it was like, "Oh my God, he touched my body." and ran off to HR claiming he "caressed her." If it were not for many in the IT group (male and female) that observed what really happened and came to this guy's defense he would've caught hell for it. I would not be surprised at all if half or more than half of "sexual discrimination/harrashment" cases were bogus.

I have had men that I work with come right out to my face and tell me that they believe my husband should be out making the money and I should stay home and take care of the children. How does that make me feel working with these men on a day-to-day basis? They don't even think I should be there. How do you even fight with that kind of attitude?

I've had a man whisper "f*** you" in my ear when I insisted on shaking his hand (like any male to male interaction in a work environment) instead of allowing him to hug me as a greeting.

I have been to training sessions where I am the only female and all the men went out to a strip club afterwards. I was invited, and declined, obviously. Honestly, I would have preferred not to even know they are going. I only hope that they didn't use the company credit card to pay for their "entertainment." Who knows what kinds of deals/networking/opportunities I missed out on that evening.

I had a rosie the riveter poster up at my desk at work that says "we can do it" and a male coworker (that I had never met before) came up to me and said "so, what? are you some kind of tough girl or something?" First of all, what kind of greeting is that? Secondly, "girl?" Thirdly, YES I AM, jerk, get out of my face, haha. I responded, "I guess." How was I supposed to respond to that?

Honestly, I could go on and on. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of people (men in particular) just don't "see" it, but just because it doesn't happen to you or you don't do it to other people does not mean you have to right to dismiss others' claims.

"My daughter has never NOT been around computers and is incredibly knowledgeable for a 12 y/o. She even attends a school where there is a computer graphics program. BUT... She knows more than the teacher and so the teacher is telling my child that everything she does is wrong if it varies from or goes beyond the teacher's knowledge. That tells me that the schools aren't hiring true computer professionals but people with teaching degrees who "like" computers. So now my daughter is getting bored because she isn't learning anything. That is sad because she loves computers and wants to learn everything she can.
"

well thats an unrealistic expectation for a 12 year old to be taught highly specific technology at a normal school. sure she might be ahead in basic computing, but many children are. such classes in grade school are there to make sure everyone has a base line grasp of computing, nothing more. children have enough of a hard time learning the regular subjects without being fed knowledge of photoshop or other electives which really have no worth for the college application. its just how it is, if you want ot learn graphics, its your own hobby to learn. and well thats also what college is for.

do you think steve jobs/wozniak or bill gates learned their computer skills from grade school?

of course not! these are things that if you truly love them do not require a class at all. some of the best were mostly self taught. don't make it more than it is.

My guess is that Girl Geeks got on the IT train just a bit late. Corp. America has lied to the polititians. They said they do not have qualified applicants but the real reason Corp. America lied was they have bad managers that simply don't know value. They only think they can reduce cost by cutting heads in the US. United States Girl Geeks are better any day than the offshore help. If you want Girl Geeks all you need to do is pay the going rate to turn their heads. There are other industries where Women have dominated (nursing, etc) and those industries have increased salaries to win them back.

Large Corporations have the ability to make super bad decisions for 5-10 years before it catches up to them.

We can only hope that corporate America fires their bad managers and hires someone that has the ability to manage more than the bottom line and get back to inovation invention and creation.

When Corporate America.. Dell, IBM and others quit treating their IT staff like they are disposable then you might get a few Girl Geeks back in the clases

There are so many more majors than when I was in school. I wonder if we are really counting all the girl geeks. For example, Lehigh now has programs like business information systems run out of the managment department in the B-School. It is would be my major if I started at LU today instead of 22 years ago.

Wow! A lot of different experiences are described here. I've never seen the broad discrimination or devaluing of women in my 28 year career in IT, but I think it has a lot to do with the companies I chose to work for, and the marketplace I am in.

I work on the IBM AS/400 (aka iSeries aka System i aka Power i) in the Chicago area, and I have had a pretty even male/female mix for almost my entire career (the early years of a startup and while working independently being the big exceptions). I've worked in consulting firms, international manufacturing, software companies, and retail, and the experience has been the same. I've worked for women, with women, managed women...and even married one of my co-workers!

My current job is in a retail IT department which is 70% female, including the director (my boss). The pay scale here is determined by grade, so people with the same years of experience and similar reviews should be at about the same pay.

I will admit that the average age of the department is pretty high (48 or so) so I don't know about the percentages of women at the entry level. I do agree that all children should be introduced to computer use in grade school, and that a beginning technology course of some kind (programming, certainly, but perhaps also an overview of current computer technology, to show that programming isn't the only way in) should be required in high school.

I would hope that women currently in the field wouldn't discourage their offspring from following in their footsteps because of fear of living in a cubicle jungle: I've worked in a cubicle, but I've also spent a lot of time with clients and users, traveled internationally, and worked independently. There are many options available to good workers, if you look for them.

The ladies have taken us to the cleaners in Medicine as they now outnumber the lads in medical school, and I can vouch that they are good. So you should be HAPPY with your state of few in your schooling. THAT SENTENCE WILL BRING A BUNCH IN FOR YOU. But your best answer is to induce the schools to make the proper courses NOT elective. (I dared to put my name on this)

Interesting comments. A lot of the voices here point to the general downtrend in the IT field, and then secondly, the foreign male culture, and then thirdly, the male geek culture.

Women in the US have had to endure a lot to make it where they are today. If they wanted to succeed in numbers in the IT field, they would, but obviously, they think there are better options out there. Besides, wasn't there a statistic out there recently that in the urban markets women earned more than men? Seems like women's move out of IT hasn't hurt them one bit.

We seem to be skimming the surface never addressing some true root causes why we find so few women in IT.

We drum into kids that if they are interested in Math and Science they are "Geeks" - including the title of this article!. We sexualize kids earlier and earlier - watch all the 10 year olds dressed like hookers on TV!

Then in school teachers, including women teachers dont expect too much Math and Science from girls.

On top of all this we keep talking about why women are meant for Communication., soft skills and men are the ones for other jobs. Add in outsourcing, etc

Then we wonder why we don't have enough women in IT!

Are you crazy?

Girls on average always performed better in Math and Science than most boys from K-12. It's not until College that it either equalizes or changes.

I think more than anything it is the "Baby Factor." A lot of females are more interested in family than a career and so they don't put as much effort into a career, particularly one that demands so much time...both on the job and off. What Mom wants to work a 10-12 hour day in IT then go home deal with kids and then have to get back online to research, fix issues or get called in the middle of the night to resolve a problem.

I think most want to just jump straight into upper IT managment so they don't really have to do anything other than sit in meetings and talk on the phone, not be up in the middle of the night dealing with the chaos.

You're right. Why would a woman want to work 12 hours and then go home and take care of her children? Oh yes, a woman that has a spouse/partner that contributes just as much to the caregiving of her children as she does! Men aren't making IT jobs any easier for women in the helping-out-at-home respect either. Women are doing more and more with their careers and men are not equally sharing the burden of home/child care. If men want their wives to succeed, they will help them in this way. While women who have a career have to be superwoman and do EVERYTHING to take care of their family as well as bring in an income, this will continue to be a HUGE struggle for women.

that's who. If you're even moderately aware of your surroundings you'll note that divorce rates are at an all time high. A lot of women (and some men) are raising children all on their own.

Of course if a couple is involved they can share the responsibility. If you don't have that then maybe the job is not your problem, it's your partner.

Nobody has asked you to be a SuperWoman. If you do have a partner at home and he/she is not doing their part that is something you have to deal with. You are most likely in your late 30's or 40's. I see it over and over again, women having taken on such much with jobs, home, everything that they are burned out, disillusioned, etc. That is when the affairs start and other such chaos.

So what now, are IT depts supposed to offer some kind of incentives or credits for single working parents? What, since they have kids they shouldn't have to be on call 24/7 or have to work long hours like people with no kids? It's not discrimation when it impacts you huh? C'mon...this is IT. Technology is a fast paced world, always has been, always will be.

"You're right. Why would a woman want to work 12 hours and then go home and take care of her children? Oh yes, a woman that has a spouse/partner that contributes just as much to the caregiving of her children as she does! Men aren't making IT jobs any easier for women in the helping-out-at-home respect either. Women are doing more and more with their careers and men are not equally sharing the burden of home/child care. If men want their wives to succeed, they will help them in this way. While women who have a career have to be superwoman and do EVERYTHING to take care of their family as well as bring in an income, this will continue to be a HUGE struggle for women."

we are still animals. and the mating game still plays by much the same rules. a woman demanding more sacrifice from her partner better have some serious value backing that up. for instance she might have to look like a supermodel which is unlikely. women tend to be attracted to men with more power/wealth/education than themselves. such men could get a better deal from a woman who would stay home and raise their children. the mating rules are incompatible with the ideal of such women finding men who would be willing to split or take over child care unless they marry down or men they do not find attractive. men have no trouble marrying down educationally/economically as long as the girl is attractive. it doesn't really work the other way around. ugly reality, but thats how it is and unlikely to change any time soon.

Folks, as a long time veteran of the IT and systems management fields I can tell you that the reason both women (girls if you like) and men (boys if you like) are not pursuing careers in CS and IT is very simple.
It is no longer a career that pays well or has an excellent future. The labor pool has been flooded with H1Bs from outside the USA who are willing to work for half what is a reasonable wage to a US born employee. IT development work (programming in particular) has become (in the eyes of management) a "factory job" whose objective is to produce lines of code as cheaply as possible whether those lines of code reflect an understanding of the business process or not. If I knew "then" what I know now as a white male over 50, I would not have chosen a career in IT.

Our department offers an MIS major which is what some would define as less 'geekish' and the problem is still the same. Approximately 15% of our major are girls. As one of the 3 females in a department with 19 males I can see why students are reluctant to 'do battle' in such an environment. Maybe they are smarter than we think.

I can give you two reasons why in the Midwest girls do not go into computers. The first is easy, more and more IT jobs are being shipped over seas. Our local community college even suggests that there is no future in the field. There is only one job in the paper for every 20 people out of work. The second reason is the differences in pay. Sexual discrimination is alive in well in it and a female makes significantly less then her male counterpart. I have 3 times the degrees as my predecessor but I only make 85% of what he did.

Degrees and paper certificates are just to get your foot in the door, nothing more. Experience and ability are worth much more. Maybe those Degrees are all you have.

Stop whining and get a different job.

You can bend the numbers to represent anything you want but you're totally ignoring the possibility that maybe most females just really don't give a damn about the IT field. Look at working as an automobile or heavy equipment mechanic. You don't see women scrambling to get in that field and no studies being wasted on why (because they don't care about it).

There are jobs that are traditionally women based, child-care operations for example, that you don't see men scrambling to do yet I don't see studies wasted on trying to figure out why.

People in this country of any sex, any race or sexual orientation has the ability to do practically anything they want to do. Get over it!

How about doing a study on why rich people are getting richer and poor people are getting poorer with the middle class being squeezed out of existence.

Some years back a group of women astronomers was getting all bent out of shape because 90-95% of professional astronomers are male. Obviously, this must be because of discrimination, right? However, it turns out that about 90% or more of AMATEUR astronomers are male. Anyone who is interested in astronomy can read books and magazines about it, good telescopes are very affordable, and astronomy clubs need more active members. It's just that women are less interested in astronomy it seems.

perhaps we should look a bit closer to our educational system...the key to Information Technology can be summed up as...Who, Wants, What, When Where & most importantly WHY...analysis is the key and it is hard to teach...one must be inquisitive by nature...why..why..why..

Males/ Females think different and therefore will naturally make different choices. It’s not that geek girls have disappeared, but they are reaching their natural set point as the industry matures (when IT was “new” – there would have been a natural lift in women entering the market).

Here are few pointed reminders of the separate but equal formula and why IT will probably always attract relatively fewer women.
1) Men like to do a task at a time and move on – quite suited to an IT environment.
2) Men can more easily assume tunnel vision to the exclusion of all else. A highly useful function when trying to debug a program or process.
3) Men get culturally acclimated to “computers” early on -- when was the last time you saw a 13 year old girl consumed by a video game for hours on end?
4) Women are more collaborative which is better suited for other corporate functions
5) Women are more practical (sorry but it has been my experience) and often IT needs to be inflexible in the interests of greater good.

So its not that we have disappeared – we may have made other choices that we just like better.

Judy,

Probably one of the best comments I've read so far, logical thinking.

Well done.

First of all, women in general, seek positions with more security than men do. Between the do-com bubble burst and off-shoring; industry has sent a strong message that there is no security in computers. Once burned, twice shy; it's going to be 10 more years before the attitude of the career field recovers in the U.S.

Secondly, there may be a suberabundance of jobs begging for I.T. people to fill, but companies aren't filling them for months at a time for a couple of reasons. They aren't willing to pay I.T. people what they are really worth, which is why they try to undercut American workers by off-shoring and hiring H1-Bs (who really aren't as qualified anyway). And companies are placing unrealistic expectations of skills on the positions they want people for. Someone recently posted in a blog reply that they "want Jesus in a 3 -peice suit 24/7 for the cost of just bread and water".

As for other "opportunities still remain within a company for people to bridge the relationship between the outsourced IT vendors and the business side"; this is just more smoke and mirrors. It ignores the fact that it's not possible (in the majority of cases) for people to bridge any gap between IT and business without experience; experience that they can't get because they can't get into the feeder jobs in the first place.

just look at the job offers around.

basically every one of them demands years of job experience. getting started in this field is difficult.

A critical point in this article for both girls and boys is that we are not teaching kids anything but computer literacy. For girls, in particular, this seems to be how to use MS Office. We should be teaching literacy in elementary school and at least provide the opportunity to learn programming, operating systems, and telecommunications at the high school level. They also need to know there is far more to IT than just programming. I am a woman who has been in IT for 20 years starting as a Unix systems administrator and moving on through programming, database development and administration, and managing a nationwide WAN, and finally as an IT project manager. Girls need to be exposed to all of the possiblities in the IT field and the tremendous growth path available to those who stay with it.

"
A critical point in this article for both girls and boys is that we are not teaching kids anything but computer literacy. For girls, in particular, this seems to be how to use MS Office. We should be teaching literacy in elementary school and at least provide the opportunity to learn programming, operating systems, and telecommunications at the high school level. "

they do, there are basic courses in most grade schools. some even have a bit of programming. but its unrealistic to expect schools to steer everyone down the path of IT, it would be like forcing everyone to take autoshop courses in highschool.

The amount of Ladies, women, girls, females(pick your favorite Politically correct term)will find its natural level. There are many careers that the proportions are different for the two sexes.

If they are interested can can make a good living they will do it. If not, they will do something else.

All this ganshing of teeth over this whole topic seems a little silly to me.

My daughter has always been a geek. She loves computer games and graphics. This love caused her to take Masters course in Game Design that was an intensive 18month course. On graduation she took a job at a well renowned company. For the first 6 months she was able to utilize her exceptional creative thinking and designed some very good work in a small team of 3. Later, she had to become part of a much larger group because a game was getting late and "crunch" time had come. The environment changed where time spent was closely watched and meetings dragged down the creative spirit. She also felt isolated and watched being the only girl in design. She was required to work 12 hour days even though she could finish her work 3 times faster than other people. Naturally this caused frustration and she was closely monitored to ensure she spent the required time. Finally things came to a head and she was asked to leave.
I was astounded and thought that management failed in it's duty to make sure she was properly integrated and recognized for her talent.
I have personally been in IT management for 30 years and never had a problem with girls. It takes respect and trust which I think my daughters company lacked.

who wouldn't be, it's your child that you're talking about.

Did you go to work with her everyday and see (like a fly on the wall) what was really taking place or did you, like most parents would, just take her side of the story. Maybe she was antagonistic, perhaps she was argumentative and caused major disruptions on the team...or perhaps it was exactly like you said it was. Who knows, you sure don't...and I bet your daughter doesn't either. The one involved in something usually can't see their own "issues." I have worked with females before that were good workers but kept a constant state of chaos on teams because of gossip, back-stabbing, etc. Unless you were there to witness and see for yourself, your argument here is inconsequential.

doesn't sound right that she finished her "work" 3 times faster than everyone else. i don't buy it. and well the games industry is known for grinding conditions for all involved and has many bitter males ranting about it constantly, google it. viewing everything as a gender discrimination lense distorts reality. sometimes not everything is about you. sometimes people seem to ignore you or leave you out, its because they weren't thinking about you at all.

i have serious doubts about a "masters course" in games design. i doubt any of the top games out there have been designed by anyone with such credentials. you might as well take a masters course in script writing

So many people have gone into the computer field, that it was over-populated for along time. When there is over-population in a field, pay goes down. Why pay someone a top salary when there are 50 more people waiting to take that job for less pay?

Women just realized what was going on before the men did and so they went into fields where they had a better chance of making good money and not having to beat 200 people for one or two positions.

comment but I disagree with your assessment that "girls figured it out before boys." It was more like when girls flooded the field in the mid-late 90's when the Internet boom took off it was a field full of promise and excitement. When that busted in the early 2k's I think most girls were disillusioned by the IT field when it no longer was "fun" and had to get back to real work, like the days of old.

Boys typically take to technology even at a young age, they just seem to have a natural affinity for it (of course a few girls do too, but few it seems).

For argument's sake, let's say that more men do have a natural affinity for IT than women. Even if that's the case, the few that do should not be punished for being one of those few. It needs to be accepted that there ARE women that have a natural affinity towards programming/IT. I have always been treated like I shouldn't be where I am and that I have to prove myself every day even if I proved myself yesterday. I am never given the benefit of the doubt when most men are. This is what needs to change. Give me the same chance to prove myself that men are given. Give me the same assumption of intelligence and knowledge that you give a man with similar education/background. Stereotypes are one of the most dangerous mindsets for all women and minorities. It's a shame that it doesn't work in the reverse: for example, just because a male programmer meets me, an excellent female programmer, he will not assume that every woman after me is going to be a good programmer. He seems to fall back into the more general stereotype.

It takes a long time to "prove" one's self, sometimes over and over again. I have worked in this field for over 20 years and everytime I've changed jobs or management changed, etc. I've had to re-prove myself.

I know you deal with some A-holes that no matter what you do you can never be "proven" or respected with them. Do you think because you're female that is exclusive to you? I've dealt with it many times over my career but I never whined about it. just let my actions prove and gain respect. When you save Management's @$$ several times, make them look good and or save them big money so they can look good to their superiors then they start wanting to keep you close, take care of you. If you can't earn that in your environment within 2-3 years, then you need to change environments.

"For argument's sake, let's say that more men do have a natural affinity for IT than women. Even if that's the case, the few that do should not be punished for being one of those few. It needs to be accepted that there ARE women that have a natural affinity towards programming/IT. I have always been treated like I shouldn't be where I am and that I have to prove myself every day even if I proved myself yesterday. I am never given the benefit of the doubt when most men are. This is what needs to change. Give me the same chance to prove myself that men are given. Give me the same assumption of intelligence and knowledge that you give a man with similar education/background. Stereotypes are one of the most dangerous mindsets for all women and minorities. It's a shame that it doesn't work in the reverse: for example, just because a male programmer meets me, an excellent female programmer, he will not assume that every woman after me is going to be a good programmer. He seems to fall back into the more general stereotype.
"

when you flood a field by pushing a group of people who shouldn't really be there you create the conditions of the stereotype in question. basic competence to pass exams is different from having a mind suited for such work. its the difference of barely competent and true mastery. as said by a poster above, many skills are learned by osmosis by those who surround themselves with technology not just when on the job. if the other workers notice that there are a flood of workers who seem to have gotten their credentials and position more because of politics than merit they'll be skeptical of their abilities. its the blow back of the do gooders forcing people into the field. you seem to view everything through a gender lense. i really don't think most men give other men the benefit of the doubt when it comes to programming ability. maybe a long time in the past, but not for at least a decade. like women, many men went into the field for superficial reasons and had no real aptitude for the real work they would have to do. as said, programmers today are of poorer quality. i really don't know where your gripes are coming from unless you assume every slight is personal when it probably isn't.

I've been in IT for 18 years now. I have 2 kids, daughter & son. No way in hell would I every steer them toward a career in IT. IT as a field today SUCKS, I seriously regret going into it, for many of the obvious reasons stated.

The men where I work come and go as they please. Take classes during work hours and don't make up their time, take very long lunch breaks and about 20 smoke breaks a day. They spend most of their day in the break room talking and laughing and not getting work done. When one of the women want to take a class, we have to present a schedule that shows how we will make up our time, if we are a few minutes late getting back from lunch, we get the evil eye and we don't smoke so we barely get a break. I am sticking it out though so I can get my retirement and get out of here in a few years.

Yes this is discrimination but if the boss does it too, there is nothing that can be done about it. That is why women are not longer getting into the technical field. Man control everything and the women do all the work.

oops got a couple of words out of whack in above article because I was in such a rage when I wrote it....sorry.

I have two daughters. My oldest decided in 4th or 5th grade that math and science were geeky subjects and turned her attention elsewhere. My youngest is in high school. She decided about 6th grade that even though she does well in math and science that she's not interested in them. There seems to be lots of pressure on girls in elementary school to be 'girly.' We are missing out on the talent and creativity that girls would bring to the engineering and CS field. Can't we do something to convince them in elementary school to pursue these areas of study? Think...when was the last time a 3rd grader, boy or girl, stood up on career day and said I want to be a software engineer? As a society we are doing something wrong. Let's hope we can turn it around.
God Bless

"I have two daughters. My oldest decided in 4th or 5th grade that math and science were geeky subjects and turned her attention elsewhere. My youngest is in high school. She decided about 6th grade that even though she does well in math and science that she's not interested in them. There seems to be lots of pressure on girls in elementary school to be 'girly.' We are missing out on the talent and creativity that girls would bring to the engineering and CS field. Can't we do something to convince them in elementary school to pursue these areas of study? Think...when was the last time a 3rd grader, boy or girl, stood up on career day and said I want to be a software engineer? As a society we are doing something wrong. Let's hope we can turn it around.
God Bless"

you are assuming a different creativity because of gender. which means there are differences between the genders...which might mean theres a different preference in interests and career choices. and well, theres a big difference between college course math and programming and 6th grade math. one might love one, and be rather indifferent about the other. the pressure is really the other way around, theres pressure for girls to stay in math, with special math programs and such. they tend to be failures. in studies they show even if they did well in the special math path they were given they eventually decided not to study a highly technical field in college. its forcing people into a mold. people should simply be free to do what they want. whats the last time a little girl stood up in class and said she wanted to work on an oil rig? or work on high tension power lines for pg&e?

The story begs the question, but doesn't attempt an answer. Could the professor ask around and find out whose classes have a growing roll of women? Then, ask them why. Hopefully they're in med school. The baby boomers are turning 60 now.

the majority of medical school grads are females and has been for a while now. of course theres no program to correct this "imbalance" as the field gets more dominated by women. funny how politics work. if you want a gross example of gender imbalance look at nursing. it pays very well, and there are very few men. where are the programs and accompanying outrage and cries of injustice? when there is a lack of fairness in cries of injustice one questions the integrity those who push such quota systems so selectively.

First I am in my forties and anyone in their 20s like my girls and thier boyfirends I refer to as girls and boys b/c they are still at that young exciting age where I wish I was but with the knowledge I have accumulated since then---so I agree with most that the term is not meant to be deameaning
I have 3 daughters (in their 20's) and who are still to referred to by me and my family as the "girls" (b/c they were the first grandkids to my parents before any of my brother's or sisters' kids were born) and were raised around computers---every weekend to be exact b/c their father, me, had to work almost every weekend since they were little and that is the time when i got to see them b/c of a divorce with my first wife their mother.
They are very adapt at computers, math and music---all things that I do, like to do (computers less now) and am good at. I never put any limitations on what they could do or what they could be good at and just told them to always do their best.
Parents are the best teachers of what their children can or cannot do b/c the world will always present obstacles to them and tell them "No you can't".
Two of them worked with me in IT part time while at school and were very proficient at Desktop support using logic and common sense to deal with whatever came their way and I could just send them out into the fire of an issue and have confidence they could take care of it.
Well, all 3 have seen the hours I put in and the late night and early AM fires I have to put out under extreme pressure over the years and still and I have no doubt they could do it if they chose to, but they choose NOT to b/c of what they saw me go thru, and NOT b/c they were NOT able or thought they would be treated unfairly----they know we all get treated unfairly and have to deal with it like i have in whatever they do, but I always told them to do what they want to do. Computers is not it, even though they were good at it----They all have told me they will NEVER work with me again b/c of the nature of my job and seeing it and being in it first hand.
It has worn me down at times and is a definite strain on family and personal life, so they are smart enough to see this and since it is really not their passion to do IT they chose a different path. If IT was their passion then they would have pursued it further with all its pluses and minuses---again it was their choice and not mine.
Schooling, skill levels, social injustices, sex discrimination, educational encouragement or discouragement were not factors, they just saw it first hand from me and decided that is not what they want to do even though they could do it. It is not their passion and that is what I told them to follow is their passion in life---do / work where they want to work in the career of their choice----if i had boys i would tell them the same thing.
It is not a women are smarter and men are dumber thing or visa versa b/c there are women who are smart and men who are smart and those who are not in the IT field and in other fields.
Either way, at times, they will have to put up with demeaning bosses, back stabbing co-workers and credit-grabbing idiots in any field, so they need to be prepared for that and learn to handle it head on and so they better pursue what it exciting to them, so they can better deal with the rest of it, which comes with living and working in the world---that is what I have told them and that is what they know and so I trust their decisions and will help them get thru in whatever they decide and any bumps in the road they encounter----so let them choose what they will and stop worrying about quotas in any field, IT or otherwise, and just let you children know they can do whatever they want and that they should strive to do it well, whatever they choose!!

You have taught "the girls" well.

My "girls" also opted out of dealing with the insanity of the IT world after seeing what toll it took on me. So much I missed during their growing up years all because of IT. It provided well for my family, allowed for my wife to stay home with the kids (like she WANTED to do), allowed me to provide for them better than most anything else I could've done but it was hard.

I too still refer to my daughters, in their 20's, as "the girls."

My daughter, always a cheerful geek, left high school the middle of her senior year for medical reasons (bad interaction with prescription med, permanent neurological damage). To occupy her time she taught herself HTML, CSS, etc. and put up websites. This combined her tech interest in "how things work" along with her love of art, graphics and interaction with others who appreciated her work or whose work was featured on sites she set up. She is not in the work force, but keeps up far more with the "tech" side of websites than I ever knew existed (being a CAD person myself). If she ever does get to be employable, she is very single-minded, knowledgeable, etc. (but has no degree or "certificate" to prove anything at this point). From all I have read among the comments here, it seems to me "IT" jobs come in all sorts of flavors, and all kinds of people are needed to fill them. Reducing IT simply to writing computer code or building networks seems very narrow. Some people (women and men) seem to survive because they know and have mastered two or more skills, not just "computer code" but also the discipline for which it is used (tax calculations, video or gaming apps, engineering apps, retail apps, etc.) Seems to me this is where more job "security" is, if security can be had in an industry where everything seems to be changing all the time. As for myself, the impression I have from the IT industry is largely negative, and many of my stereotypes about it are reinforced by comments I have read here. My primary concern (were I to be 20 and looking at an IT "career" is that you either settle for low pay or get out-sourced, despite having spent years learning a very complex, constantly changing trade. I know of people who make over $200,000/yr **fixing chimneys** for heaven's sake, not to mention electricians, plumbers and so forth who make $100K/yr. Can't outsource these jobs very well, unless you yield the field to illegal immigrants. Some aspects of these "trades" jobs might not be pleasant (name me any job that is always agreeable --- my CPA is known to sleep on a cot in his office the last weeks before Apr 15!), but at least you can bring home a paycheck if you're good at these particular things. I'm not surprised at the variations I have read ranging from companies with sexist attitudes to more sensible places where women and men work together without the baggage of stereotypes, salary disparities and so forth. You would think intelligent management would be looking for qualified people, regardless of sex, and would pay them fairly, but it seems the IT field is flooded enough with students, out-of-work IT people (men or women), foreigners and the rest that management thinks they can pick the plums they want (along whatever antediluvian stereotypes they subscribe to) and thumb their noses at women. Well, perhaps they will get what they bargained for, and lose out on talent that might have made their bottom lines a lot better. But they will never know, and something tells me they don't care. I completely agree with comments here that modern management has a horizon no longer than 3 months. Between Wall Street and bonus-happy managers (MBA = Masters of Barbaric Acquisition), there is no long-term thinking or emphasis on quality or customer satisfaction. Ship out whatever crap your marketing department (read professional liars club) thinks will hook suckers and never look back. Something doesn't work? Promise the customer (er, sucker) that it will be fixed in the new version, coming out next month; or dazzle them with useless "new features" (rearrange the deck chairs) so everybody will feel compelled to get the new version and have to spend hours figuring out [again] what they knew how to do yesterday. Yeah sure. Personally, I find that entire "ethic" demoralizing and dishonest. Another reason I wouldn't consider a job in the "IT industry" these days. I do have a nephew who joined the US Navy and is very happy in cryptography. They'll never outsource his work for security reasons! Next time I see him, I'll ask him if any girls/women work with him! Cheers.

Sexism is wrong. I agree that we need to be concerned that women are treated equally in pay for equal performance, that sexual harrassment is dispicable and should be punishable to the fullest extent. We need to create an environment where women are respected, honored, cherished and treated as the equal that they are.

Women dominate in most areas of the professional sector. The highest paid person at my company--by far--is a woman. The percentage of the highest wage earners where I work is nearly evenly split between men and women. As this article states: "... women hold 51 percent of professional jobs in the United States ..."

How about those sectors where women dominate? Many fields are dominated by women. And women receive well over 60% of the graduate and post-graduate degrees in our nation. Where are the studies focusing on how to raise the percentage of men in those sectors? They do not exist. Not a single one that I know of.

What bothers me is the "emporer has not clothes" syndrome that disallows honest conversation that men and women are different. Equal, yes. But different. And this goes for the brain--they are designed differently. A woman's brain is biologically different from a man's. This is simple biological and genetic reality. Does that make this difference an unequal one or a "lesser" one? No. And while I applaud conversations like this one, what needs to a part of it is the reality that men and women simply are geared differently and how this reality impacts the different vocations and interests and the percentages of the genders therein.

Is it okay that the vast majority of teachers, librarians, and nurses are women? Yes. Should we fund studies to get more men involved in these careers? Ridiculous. Women, by nature, are nurturers and are attracted to fields that allow them to heal, instruct, and grow. No mystery.

Men, on the other hand, are designed to think in a more linear fashion. It is biological fact the neural connections between the two hemispheres of the brain are chemically severed in a man's brain, but not touched in a woman's. This allows women to process stimuli simultaneous, with superior spatial perceptions and intuitive wisdom. The world's finest sharp-shooters are all women. Women also speak, because of this, twice as many words in a day as men, which allows them to excel in diplomatic roles far better then men. But men's linear processing simply, in general, gear them better for computing disciplines. Not that women can not do it. But men are simply more naturally geared for the problem-solving linear processing demans of computing.

It's a simple observation. The highest paid computer consultant at my company is a woman. And she rocks. But she is the minority. The exception. Most of the programmers are men here, and not due to discrimination, either.

We will do women far more good by recognizing their true capabilities and valuing what and who they are instead of trying to force them into roles that they simply may not want or like. They, like all persons, will excel and make more money in vocations that are a best fit for their true natures, and not the politically-correct conformist versions of what their natures are "supposed to be."

outstanding comment.

Well done Greg, an excellent point of view.

I come at IT as a second career and from a different place (science) so maybe I think in a somewhat more analytical way. When I first thought to enter IT (about 15 years ago), I did some research and found that about 45% of IT was female. That looked OK to me. Interestingly, I actually got my first job because there were no qualified women applicants around who wanted the job, and they needed a woman badly because they had been slapped on the hands for not hiring women. What I have noticed over the years is that there are a lot of women in IT, but they are not programmers. They become DBAs, project managers -- ANYTHING but programmers. I think that most of the comments that I have read in this discussion play some role in this, but I would entirely agree with you that 'wiring' plays a much greater part than anyone would think. It's not that most women do not LIKE information technology, they do NOT like to program. It requires a kind of focus and thought pattern that is rare in women and not nearly so rare in men. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS! The women that can do it are usually every bit as good as the men, but even those may well drift to something which requires a softer focus.

However, I have also found that the entire programming environment has changed and not for the better. It's somewhat like teaching; it is no longer a highly respected field. In IT now, the emphasis is on quick and dirty, not innovation or optimal performance. What used to be a field where being innovative was considered good has changed into a field where any deviation from 'the way we do it' is considered grounds for dismissal. Consequently, even the women who would do it for the adventure of it are no longer attracted.

It is also a very young field. At 61, it is hard for me to get a job, as it is for older men, too. It is worse for women, though, because, after all, who wants to hire their mother? (tongue in cheek; not meant to offend.)

Let me speak somewhat to the broader issue of why girls do not gravitate to technology. Well, they do not gravitate to science and math either even though they do very well at it. This, I think really is social. It's better now than it was when I was a child. At that time, a first grader who was interested in rocks, chemistry, and astronomy was totally ostracized. The teachers thought you were a freak, and there was absolutely no none to talk to about the cool rock you just found, Saturn's rings, or anything else of interest. Frankly, I do not think that today's elementary school teachers would find it any less off-putting, but the number of girls interested in that 'stuff' is likely to still be pretty small. Boys are 'expected' to like rocks and creepy crawlies and have a lot of peers. The emphasis for girls is much more on being 'girls' than it is on being a person. Boys, though, are definitely pushed into being 'boys' and a girl who likes things that boys traditionally like will find it hard to be accepted by the boys, especially if she still wants to be a girl in other aspects. This kind of segregation happens at a VERY early age and crossover becomes more and more difficult as kids grow up.

Here is another thought for you -- even worse segregation than in programming. Girls figure skate; boys play hockey. Of course, there is some crossover, but the percentage is very small. Stereotyping is a really big issue here and starts at an equally early age. Go to any ice rink.

Here is a suggestion for a fix, based on my experience as a sixth grader: Both girls and boys took shop. Both girls and boys took cooking. Let's have more of this enforced crossover of traditional roles. I don't think it has to be a 'force technology on girls' thing. It needs to send a very clear message that breaks the girl/boy stereotypes and that such crossover is useful and acceptable.

Hey, nothing wrong with women taking shop (my girlie knows more about cars than I do) or men taking cooking (one of my bad habits is cooking homemade food).

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More-Startling/dp/0814472109
Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap -- and What Women Can Do About It
by warren farrel who served on the board of the national association of women. his studies and his book do show that women do choose more secure careers, and this does lead to lower pay as an average. dangerous dirty disgusting jobs pay more, and men do them. i guess at this point IT can be classified as disgusting lol

I am female enterprise architect at a large company with an IT department of over 1000. Of the 40+ architects, I am 1 of 3 females. I have found in my career (over 20 years) that men are assumed to be competent in the field, unless found otherwise after scrutiny. Women have to prove they are competent, and assumed incompetent until they can prove otherwise. I can't tell you how many times I have had the role as the "token female." It is a hard field for women and I believe a great deal of the problem DOES have to do with educational issues. Boys see primarily boys in tech classes; girls have no role models and contend with social pressures to "dumb down". I have 5 daughters, 2 of whom are engineers. They have both had the same issues as I, but I was able to be a good role model for them, so they have been successful. I feel sorry for the younger girls who have no role models.

Women are better able to assess a scene than boys. The period in question starts with the bottom dropping out of the Internet bubble. High-flying investors disrupted the career paths of many geeks. Also, the job market for geeks has geeks commoditized to the point where it isn't enough that the prospect can pick up a manual and learn the technology. He/she/it must already have five solid years doing nothing but that technology -- else: not qualified. HR departments haven't got the right picture yet of what it is to be a computer geek. Your skills amount to nil. Your experience is everything.

Women have a nature affinity toward the biological sciences not toward the analytical. To the women who says that in a work place dominated by men is discrimatory take a look at nursing, a field that is dominated by women…. Oh it is also happening in dentistry where the majority of the graduates are now women and also in pharmacy……. We have to get over this “Men are bad, Women are good.� Take a look at the statistics… More women than men are now graduating from college and this is going to get worse. This disparity is even worse for minorities. Folks we are loosing a generation of boys from the technical field and we are not doing anything all about it. In light of the condition of the American male, does this really need to be asked?

I'm not sure what rocks the writer and professors are living under, but I am in IT and recommending to all my friends' kids to avoid it like the plague! Every IT job that can go overseas will. I lost my old mainframe job to Brazil and I'm now in Distributed (which is a cesspool of chaos in all ways compared to mainframe). I work fulltime at home, 12 hour shifts, and right now I'm on nights all by myself supporting dozens of servers and thousands of backups. Sometimes I am being ping'd by 6 - 10 customers at once about their issues. It is insanity. We are LEAN< which means we are running with WAY too few on a team. These jobs, too, will go overseas, once the chaos is tamed and everything is close to standardized and documented properly.

No one in his/her right mind would go into IT - at least not in the U.S. DON'T DO IT. By the way, my management chain has told their kids the same thing. This is one miserable company (300,000+ employees).

The answer as to why women are avoiding going into Information Services (IS) jobs is no different than the reason why many men no longer choose careers in IS. Why go into a career that most American (and foreign) companies are looking to offshore the jobs, or at least bring in H1Bs, to get cheaper (their definition of qualified) technical labor. If America losses it's global technical lead we can certainly point the finger at our own CEOs.

It's ultimately not about changing the way girls think. It's about changing the way men think.

Right now, most men do not consider geeky girls to be attractive. Human beings, male and female, will always always want to be attractive to the opposite sex. Why so many women wear high heels, bleach their hair blond, and show cleavage? Why do men bulk up their muscles, try hard to be successful, and drive expensive cars? It's all about being attractive to the opposite gender.

If we want more women to go into technology, we have to convince the men that women in technology are sexy and desirable.

The question suggests that young women are not entering the field. Who can blame them. If the work environment consists of Cubicles, Career paths, Personnel and Salary discrimination. I would avoid it also.

I worked as a contractor for the "IT Industry" that existed in the 1960's and early 1970's. There were few women doing my type of work: Drafting and Graphic Design, but there were plenty of Project Managers who were women. Back in the day, we traveled from company to company on a project basis. I am a black male, but racial animosity only became an issue on one job and that was in the Medical field. I feel the pain of predjudice, but it was not common.

Perhaps women are aware of how the Industry thinks and avoid the hassle. After all this is America and there are many ways to make money.

I am a very early adapter. We are talking COBOL, FORTRAN, binary, and AGOL. The industry was usre friendly at the time and I assumed that it would be more so in the 21st. Century.

I had planned to take my lifelong experiences as a Techie, Stockbroker. CFP and Caterer into Website Design. I wanted to help thse fields become more user friendly especially for smartphones. After reading these comments, I don't know. I had thought that a person could be as ugly as the devil and work out of a tree house and it wouldn't make any difference in this day and age. Thanks for the wake up call.

I get this. I'm over 50 and the only women I see in the field are at industry gatherings. The only girls that made it through with us boys back then were at the top of the class or near it; nothing less. When I see a woman in my profession I already know she works hard, she's competent technically, and she's the one you want to hear when she speaks, unlike most all out-school kids (young enough to be mine anyway) that only know what they were taught. It takes years in the field to make an expert, that's still learning. I try to tell my kid every five years it’s a different life. How different was your life between 20 and 25, to age 30. I like the comment earlier relating a mind of 30 in a complaining body age 50+.

Heres the deal, women should stay in the kitchen were they belong!

They have no place being near computers, when they should be doing my washing.

By the way, can anyone tell me why I have trouble finding a girlfriend?

I am an Analyst/Programmer and been working in Information Technology for nearly 20 years. I work on code all day and working with the latest technologies. I have worked in many different IT positions over the years, and this has made my career interesting. I am currently studying an IT Masters degree majoring in Project Management. My current employer is great and given me the flexibility to work from home three days per week and two days at work. Being in this industry has given me a lifestyle/work balance opportunity.
Melissa

CS is probably similar, but when I was getting my engineering degree '72-'76 at a major university, the "get females into tech" binge was fully engaged. Since it is fully legal to discriminate against white males in favor of women and minorities, and adding in H1B visas, getting good work at a good wage is tough for folks like me. ...And in my experience, most women who graduate and enter the workforce in technology quickly switch to high-paid easier jobs in marketing and sales.

what is the reproductive success on average of female geeks vs the rest of the population?
what is the rate of genetic suicide?

Most female geeks I know of have several children, because they are SMART enough to pick out caring male geeks for husbands and fathers.

My daughters fields are bio-engineering, and a budding politician. After watching their mother being constantly put down by the dinosaurs in the field, they won't be programmers, although they're good at it.

It's not nature that makes a programmer, or genetics. It certainly isn't gender

A lot of girls have watched as their parents, and their friends parents were transitioned to contracting jobs with no benefits or working very long hours with little satisfaction as the IT industry turned from exciting to a factory-like atmosphere. They have all gotten the message that you have a short career span, little job security and once you hit your late 40's or early 50's the jobs just disappear. Girls and women are much more concerned with the environment they work in, and the future it holds for them.

Now to defend a small handful of the guys viewpoints, not all of us are estrogen-hating, testosterone-swinging, ego-slinging pigs. To be completely honest, the job market as a whole has been drying up (thanks to outsourcing or H1-B visa abuses). I'm not even in the market, but I'm still affected by it as my girl is a software engineer. But thanks to a certain corporation *coughlockheedcough*, she's been out of a job for quite some time now. And getting back into a job isn't easy either.

But to be honest, it's not just because men don't like women being in the office. To be honest, it'd be nice seeing a female face around in the midst of a lot of BS that guys shoot around. And I feel for the woman who had her ideas stolen by her boss. But if that happens, what you have to do is carefully document what you do, then jump his head when proposing your idea.

But that guy was just a dick. A small amount do care about this issue. Because when the women go from a job, the men aren't too far behind.

I'm planning on going back to school to study Computer Science with a degree in Software Engineering. Playing with technology is really the only thing I can see myself spending years doing.

I'm the professor interviewed in the article. One thing that didn't come through clearly in the article: I don't have "one female major" in a particular course, I have "one female major" in our entire department, all four years, CS and CMIS majors combined. (The course mentioned in the article that has plenty of women doing well is a "programming for non-majors" course.) Ten years ago, we had 20-30 female CS students in the department, so (as of the time of the interview) we were down at least 95%.

One plausible explanation people have given for the difference is that boys and men tend to get more excited by machines (be they sports cars, computers, cameras, drill presses, whatever) as an end in themselves, whereas girls and women tend to be interested in machines only as a means to accomplish something else. There's actual research to support this, and it would explain having fewer women in IT, but it wouldn't explain why women left the field so much more dramatically than men did in the last eight years.

Take a look at http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/05/18/the_freedom_to_say_no?mode=PF
In a nutshell, the research described in this article shows that
a) Men tend to prefer to work with inorganic materials, machines, etc. while women tend to prefer working with people and living things, hence the number of women in medicine, biology, education, social work, and HR.
b) Girls who are good at math tend to also be good at other things, while boys who are good at math are often weak in verbal and other skills. This suggests that those women who would be the best at IT choose to go into other fields because they're also the best lawyers, doctors, etc, while the men in IT may not have a lot of other choices.
c) Those countries that offer women the most financial and legal protection in choosing careers, and the most "family-friendly" policies, have MORE variance, not less, in which gender goes into which field, suggesting that it really is a matter of choice more than of discrimination.

On outsourcing and offshoring, see http://www.acm.org/globalizationreport/ which says among other things "To date, the annual [IT] job loss attributable to offshoring is approximately 2 to 3 percent of the IT workforce. But this number is small compared with the much higher level of job loss and creation that occurs every year in the United States."